Questions about an Erfurt 1917/1920 Mauser

H

Hornfan2000

Member
Hello, newbie here, I just recently purchased my first Mauser. I chose the pictured rifle, simply because its a good companion for my Luger. They are both Erfurt, double dated 1917/1920. I've done some homework on the rifle, but was hoping someone here could enlighten me a bit more.

A few questions still lingering for me:
  • The unit disk shows "R.R.", some sources say this is Reserve Infantry Regiment, others say Recruiting Depot. Is there any way to nail that down?
  • It seems that the stock has 2 numbers stamped on it, a faint "5111" or something, over a very distinct "2121". Whats that top number? Was this stock previously on a different rifle? Does that explain the "****" above the "2121" on the buttplate as well?
  • Does the "UU" suffix on the serial number tell us anything? Like month of manufacture or something?
  • The finish on this rifle is near perfect, perhaps too perfect. Has is been refinished? Or is this factory work?
  • Is this likely a vet bringback?

Thanks in advance.












 
Without looking further, the rifle has definitely been refinished as original bolts were "in the white." I have had period rebuilds of what were probably battlefield recoveries that had parts renumbered, blued bolts and RCs added to the receiver. Mr. Farb is correct as usual because the rifle would only have come from a reserve unit if the second upper-case "R" was reversed. Nice piece of history!
 
Hello Hornfan 2000,

just a short note on the topic "reserve regiment" or "Rekrutendepot" from around 1900-1918. Your unit marking is post 1918 but maybe it's still interesting to know.
The reading of unit markings really depends on what type of stamp regulation you look at. When talking about weapons and bayonets like the Mauser 98 rifle/carbine and S98 bayonet (after 1900) the prussian stamp regulation from 1897 or 1909 is most often the one you are looking for.

From 1897 on reserve infantry regiments are now just marked with an single cursive R.. No more R. R. for an reserve infantry regiment. If you want to mark a non infantry unit the R. stays infront of the other Letter. (for example R. D. for a reserve dragoon regiment).

So if you have a Mauser 98 rifle or bayonet marked with R. R. it's marked to a Rekrutendepot of an infantry regiment. R. R. is the Rekrutendepot of an reserve infantry regiment.

I hope this will help you a bit.



Best wishes

Vincent
 
Thanks, Spartaner, I reversed my Rs. Anyway, it's a rework and could have been done during the WWI era, possibly issued to a grenadier regiment.
 
As Mike stated, it is an interwar cavalry unit marking, and I doubt the Germans had Reserve Regiments after 1918, - the entire point of Versailles (and the arrogant efforts of France, who were obsessed over the German police forces, which they rightly classified as a reserve, especially the federal police) was to limit all reserves available to the new German republic. A good book for interwar German unit markings is German Small Arms Markings, by Görtz and Bryans, really the only good resource in English (probably)

The rifle looks like a period rework by the ordnance depot at Cassel (the wrist); you really do not show the stock well, but i assume the cypher and acceptance under is weak, - usually depots sanded stocks and often applied new acceptance from the depot, almost always at the wrist, but very often on the RS where the cypher and acceptance was originally. The manner of canceling and re-serialing is consistent with HZa work.

uu-block of 1917 means it was VERY late 1917 production, the second to last block, so probably made in December 1917. Erfurt in WWI was the Mauser Oberndorf of WWII, - well not in the quality department, their production was crude and often ugly, which as a P08 collector you are surely aware of. But when it came to numbers, no one kept up with Erfurt, they made enormous amounts of K98a and P08's during the war.

It has certainly been refinished, but it is probable it was period, hard to say from pictures. Blued buttplates are known in this period, typically associated with police, not Army, so that is a bad sign, but still could be ok. There are few hard rules in the interwar period, - mostly because most of what they did was rework and reworks are done by individuals at many different locations, but also Germany was broke and they cut corners on military spending, especially early on under the socialist governments (and under the scrutiny of the IAMCC); ironically, although Hitler gets the blame for militarization (and totalitarian government/suppression of liberty/crackdown on dissent), he was not the first on either count, he was just the most efficient and ruthless. The first real increase in military spending came before him, a huge budget he inherited from the prior administration. Which of course paled compared to later budgets, but small arms was not a major priority (spending) even under Hitler, at least at first, - his first priority militarily was to undo the structural (infrastructure) damage Versailles imposed, but that is another story.
 
Hard to tell from the pix but as I recall, my rebuilds from that period were all rust blued during the process.
 
Outstanding information gentlemen, very fascinating, thank you all. A couple of follow up questions...


  • When the re-work was done at the factory, and this stock was force matched to this receiver, what happened with the unit marked disk? I assume it would stay with the stock, and not be removed, and kept with the receiver. Just curious if it would have had a different unit marking in 1918.
  • The caliber is marked at "7.9", I see other rifles with 7.91-7.94 on them. Why did this one only get 1 decimal place? Maybe it measured 7.90?



Thanks again, I greatly appreciate you folks taking time to educate me.
 
Factories didn't rework rifles, some of the arsenals seem to have (Amberg and Danzig), but these are probably more along the lines of salvage than reworking. Ordnance depots reworked rifles, in the Imperial era things were different than after 1918, - many "government" operated facilities existed or rather participated in the reworking process (artillery depots, collection centers etc.. probably rifles were evaluated and depending upon the level of work, or salvage, the rifles were sent to the appropriate facility. Storz book goes into this somewhat), especially during the war. Interwar is another matter, - this rifle should have been brought to the interwar forum, not the Imperial forum as there is a distinction and the forums are separate for a reason (they are radically different periods, the Germany of pre-1918 was radically different than post-1918, there is some continuity, things evolved from earlier practices, but losing the war and Versailles turned German society on its head, the consequences of which were Hitler...)

Your rifle is not detailed enough to answer some of the questions, however, the rifles was reworked at an ordnance depot, not a factory, - which Simson Suhl was the only authorized factory to perform reworks, and to date there is zero proof they ever reworked a single rifle. The Germans in the interwar period behaved very much like any aggrieved party to a "contract" would, whether criminal or otherwise, when a contract is forced upon someone by the point of a gun, especially unjustifiably so (which is the case of Versailles), they honor it only to the extent they are forced, which by 1925 the vigor was starting to erode, - the English were increasingly losing heart in the process and commerce (trade) was breaking up the crime syndicate behind Versailles.. the Germans resisted in every means possible, which didn't include militarily, as Germany was thoroughly disarmed by 1924, but they did have a bigger stick, a large industrial and highly advanced (technical) and industrious society, as well as a huge market other countries wanted (and needed) access too.

This included vast efforts at working around Versailles, they opened numerous depots to circumvent restrictions (all illegal, prior to 1927 the IAMCC tried to close them, but the Germans resisted...), - your rifle was made at probably the second largest ordnance depot on the interwar period. Many rifles were reworked or built up at Cassel. The use of "C" instead of "K" dates the rifle to the early interwar period, as Cassel became Kassel in the mid-late 1920's, 1926 or so... (recollection). Your unit disk, - actually a dismounting washer-ferrule, was marked in the interwar period, not during the war. For one it is a Weimar era unit marking and second it is almost certainly a stock salvaged for the purpose prior to 1927. This rifle would not have been unit marked in 1917-1918, war time unit makings are exceedingly rare, most are expedient or specialized units, so very rare, examples exist, but usually for smaller combat organizations (like MG units).

The caliber varies because it is used to measure wear, as I recall, the purpose was to have a record to compare it to when examined later. Regardless, it can vary and yes, it probably means 7.90. MauserBill was always good with the "gunsmith/armorers" view but he hasn't been around the forums much the last year.

I am going to move this thread to the interwar forum.
 
Very nice rifle with Reichswehr (Weimar period) unit stamp.

In May 1924 the chief of army command issued the command that there are no more parts for the K98 are to be produced. That is why I assume the stock was made pre 1925.

Thanks for showing.
 
I am nearly 100% sure the stock is Imperial era manufacture and was salvaged for the purpose in the early pre-1926 period. He doesn't show the markings on the stock well enough to be 100% sure, but it would be extremely unlikely made in the post-1918 period. For one, I have never seen a stock made post-1918 (for Kar.98a), second Erfurt probably had gads of unused 98a stocks on hand November 1918, and Simson is only known to have made 98a handguards and muzzle covers, and the muzzle covers are probably only the lids to the muzzle covers because most of the actual muzzle cover bodies (that are shown/known) are marked to other makers. Simson did make considerable numbers of G98 stocks, handguards and muzzle covers, plus small components, band retainers, RS components, etc.. but 98a, very few items were made.

How the stock is marked will confirm the origins of the stock, but odds are very high it will have Imperial cypher and acceptance, though very possibly sanded or counterstamped by Cassel or other ordnance depot acceptance. Odds are excellent this rifle passed through more than one ordnance shop before the end of WWII.

There is also the question of the barrel, whether it was replaced. There are interwar barrels known, but they are similar to the S28's, in that they are Imperial blanks or very early interwar marked, that sometimes have interwar waffenamts. But these are usually police marked. Naturally, information on 98a barrels are not all it could be, most do not disassemble 98a, so although we can often tell a barrel is replaced (by removal of handguard), often the barrel coding and acceptance is not available. It is possible Simson made a few barrels, they certainly made large numbers of G98 length barrels, but as Wolfgang stated, it isn't very likely and to date, none have been encountered. Generally, 98a parts weren't made in the interwar period, only handguards really, this was probably due to Wolfgang's order and the fact that the rifles were being relegated to police and training and there were enough spare components on hand for the foreseeable future.
 
Your P08

I know this is the K98forum, and this is off topic, but I believe your P08 is what is called a VOPO Luger, meaning it is a post WWII East German rework, at least it is wearing the proper grips for one.
Your Mauser is nice, like your P08, much history there.
 
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