Regt Markings on 1912 KAR
- Thread starter vonrall
- Start date
Armeekorps IX, Reserve-Division 2, Telegraphen-Abteilung, Waffe Nr. 7
This isn't serial 1047 is it? The unit marking is nearly the same as Danzig/09 1047 listed in Jeff Nolls book, which the translation is from above. The only difference being the RD number, in Jeff Noll's book it is the 3rd RD, but over the last couple decades I have discovered some of Jeff Noll's book reports are often slightly off in one character or another, - this because the rifles have occasionally found their way to auctions and recording the trends, which all of Jeff's reports are in my trends already, small discrepancies are often found.
Anyway, this is a telegraph unit marking, - probably something like these men shown here (attached)
This isn't serial 1047 is it? The unit marking is nearly the same as Danzig/09 1047 listed in Jeff Nolls book, which the translation is from above. The only difference being the RD number, in Jeff Noll's book it is the 3rd RD, but over the last couple decades I have discovered some of Jeff Noll's book reports are often slightly off in one character or another, - this because the rifles have occasionally found their way to auctions and recording the trends, which all of Jeff's reports are in my trends already, small discrepancies are often found.
Anyway, this is a telegraph unit marking, - probably something like these men shown here (attached)
Attachments
Warrior1354
ax - hole
Vonrall sounds like a interesting Carbine post some pictures if you can.
The similarities are striking, change the 2RD to 3RD and transpose the last two digits of serial and its the same rifle, - very close.
It isn't cavalry related, its telegraph, communication soldiers, - I once owned 1909 Danzig 7499 T.AXVII.69, also telegraph, though not as sexy, it is still a good unit marking, Hussars, Ulanen and Dragoons are all known in Danzig/09 ranges, unit marking seem to group together, more or less, telegraph seem to be first, Hussar next, Dragoons next and Ulanen last, Dragoons take up a larger range than the others, maybe more of them, but cavalry is rare outside the 1909 year, only one Ulanen in the first block of 1910, - 1910-1912 typically have less desirable unit markings, lots of artillery, though the sampling is rather small a few dozen rifles.
Anyway, while I am not unit marking specialist, I do not think your unit marking has anything to do with Dragoons; maybe someone more experienced in German troop types can elaborate further, but the two books I have on unit markings suggest this is just telegraph, not an unimportant service.
It isn't cavalry related, its telegraph, communication soldiers, - I once owned 1909 Danzig 7499 T.AXVII.69, also telegraph, though not as sexy, it is still a good unit marking, Hussars, Ulanen and Dragoons are all known in Danzig/09 ranges, unit marking seem to group together, more or less, telegraph seem to be first, Hussar next, Dragoons next and Ulanen last, Dragoons take up a larger range than the others, maybe more of them, but cavalry is rare outside the 1909 year, only one Ulanen in the first block of 1910, - 1910-1912 typically have less desirable unit markings, lots of artillery, though the sampling is rather small a few dozen rifles.
Anyway, while I am not unit marking specialist, I do not think your unit marking has anything to do with Dragoons; maybe someone more experienced in German troop types can elaborate further, but the two books I have on unit markings suggest this is just telegraph, not an unimportant service.
Spartaner545
Senior Member
Hello vonrall,
from my experience i can say that Loewe is (as always) right.
2.R.D. T.A.IX.7. stands for 2. Reserve-Division-Telegraphen-Abteilung, IX Armeekorps, weapon no. 7. As found in the prussian "unit marking regulation" 1909.
The 2.R.D. belonging to early unit markings in highly unlikely since it would have been removed/crossed out before the new markings were stamped on the weapon.
I have an nice and early S98/05 old Pattern bayonet with related unit markings. Telegraphen-Abteilung, XIV Armeekorps, weapon no. 63. The Telegraphen-Abteilungen were the first units to be equipped with the S98/05 old pattern without a sawback to go with their K98AZ.
With kind regards
Vincent
from my experience i can say that Loewe is (as always) right.
2.R.D. T.A.IX.7. stands for 2. Reserve-Division-Telegraphen-Abteilung, IX Armeekorps, weapon no. 7. As found in the prussian "unit marking regulation" 1909.
The 2.R.D. belonging to early unit markings in highly unlikely since it would have been removed/crossed out before the new markings were stamped on the weapon.
I have an nice and early S98/05 old Pattern bayonet with related unit markings. Telegraphen-Abteilung, XIV Armeekorps, weapon no. 63. The Telegraphen-Abteilungen were the first units to be equipped with the S98/05 old pattern without a sawback to go with their K98AZ.
With kind regards
Vincent
Attachments
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For this interpretation the "2" had to be between the "IX" and the "7", and it should be read differently.
2. Telegraphen-Abteilung of the Reserve Division, IX. Army Corps, weapon# 7
or: IX. Army Corps, Reserve Division, 2. Telegraphen-Abteilung, weapon# 7
because the 2 refers to Telegraphen-Abteilung and not to Reserve Division.
This unit stamp really gives me headache, but definitely has nothing to do with Dragoons.
I assume that when the Reserve Division of the IX. Army Corps got an additional Telegraphen-Abteilung (then number 2), the rifle was taken over from the original Telegrafen-Abteilung (with no number, because originally there was only one Telegraphen-Abteilung). Since there was no space left, between the IX and the 7, they stamped the "2" in the very front of the marking. Still wrong sized.
Only a guess
To be fully correct, the unit stamp should be read:
IX. Reserve Army Corps, Reserve Division, 2. Telegraphen-Abteilung, weapon# 7
because only Reserve Corps had Reserve Divisions.
All German Reserve units were formed when mobilization was ordered on August 2nd 1914.
Whereas the IX. Army Corps was sent to the Western front, the IX. Reserve Corps remained in northern Germany to protect the North Sea coast and islands agains British invasion from the sea.
The IX. Reserve Corps was also called Nordarmee (North Army) and had more Corps units than regular Reserve Corps.
Thanks
IX. Reserve Army Corps, Reserve Division, 2. Telegraphen-Abteilung, weapon# 7
because only Reserve Corps had Reserve Divisions.
All German Reserve units were formed when mobilization was ordered on August 2nd 1914.
Whereas the IX. Army Corps was sent to the Western front, the IX. Reserve Corps remained in northern Germany to protect the North Sea coast and islands agains British invasion from the sea.
The IX. Reserve Corps was also called Nordarmee (North Army) and had more Corps units than regular Reserve Corps.
Thanks
After some further research:
The rifle originally belonged to the Telegraphen-Abteilung of the IX. Army Corps and had the unit stamp: T.A.IX. 7
When the war broke out and mobilization was ordered, the IX. Army Corps was sent to the Western front, but had to provide some soldiers with equipment from their active formations to form the Reserve units. That is when the 2.R.D. was added to the stamp.
In WWI and WWII it was common to form new units with some fully trained soldiers from active formations.
As mentioned earlier, the IX. Reserve Corps had more Corps units than normal Reserve Corps. With the long coast line and the islands they had to protect, they also needed more communication units.
But only for a short period. August 23rd 1914, the IX. Reserve Corps was sent to Belgium.
The 17. and 18. Reserve Division of the IX. Reserve Corps committed the war crimes in Leuven.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Belgium
The new rifles for the 2. T.A. got the unit stamp with the 2 between the IX. and the rifle#, which is according to regulations.
It can not be from the 2. Reserve Division, because the German Army did not have a 2. Reserve Division in 1914.
It can not be from the 2. Reserve Dragoons, because they were part of the III. Corps.
Thanks
The rifle originally belonged to the Telegraphen-Abteilung of the IX. Army Corps and had the unit stamp: T.A.IX. 7
When the war broke out and mobilization was ordered, the IX. Army Corps was sent to the Western front, but had to provide some soldiers with equipment from their active formations to form the Reserve units. That is when the 2.R.D. was added to the stamp.
In WWI and WWII it was common to form new units with some fully trained soldiers from active formations.
As mentioned earlier, the IX. Reserve Corps had more Corps units than normal Reserve Corps. With the long coast line and the islands they had to protect, they also needed more communication units.
But only for a short period. August 23rd 1914, the IX. Reserve Corps was sent to Belgium.
The 17. and 18. Reserve Division of the IX. Reserve Corps committed the war crimes in Leuven.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Belgium
The new rifles for the 2. T.A. got the unit stamp with the 2 between the IX. and the rifle#, which is according to regulations.
It can not be from the 2. Reserve Division, because the German Army did not have a 2. Reserve Division in 1914.
It can not be from the 2. Reserve Dragoons, because they were part of the III. Corps.
Thanks
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Thank all of you very much !!!!!!!!!!!