Remove K98K Rear Sight
- Thread starter KA4KOE
- Start date
BergerBoy
Well-known member
Hi Panelectronica.
I haven't accomplished this yet, but am getting ready to do so.
I ordered a replacement sight mount from AIM Sports that came today, and will mount it over the weekend.
Instructions for this sight say to press out the pivot pin at the front of the existing leaf sight using a drift pin or good center punch, while keeping the spring in place.
Then the new sight goes in place of it, with the provided new screw and thumbwheel.
I'm anxious to try this out, but have not found a good scope yet, that has long eye relief.
Anyone have any scope choice advice?
Is a Red Dot a good option here? They seem to have unlimited eye relief.
Not sure the best choice for hunting deer in the 100 yd range.
I haven't accomplished this yet, but am getting ready to do so.
I ordered a replacement sight mount from AIM Sports that came today, and will mount it over the weekend.
Instructions for this sight say to press out the pivot pin at the front of the existing leaf sight using a drift pin or good center punch, while keeping the spring in place.
Then the new sight goes in place of it, with the provided new screw and thumbwheel.
I'm anxious to try this out, but have not found a good scope yet, that has long eye relief.
Anyone have any scope choice advice?
Is a Red Dot a good option here? They seem to have unlimited eye relief.
Not sure the best choice for hunting deer in the 100 yd range.
Attachments
Aeisir
Moderator
Removal of rear sight
Check this link: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?121589-K98-Rear-Sight
Check this link: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?121589-K98-Rear-Sight
BergerBoy
Well-known member
Just tried the same task on my CE 43 at home today, and also having trouble with removing the hinge pin on the rear leaf site.
I was able to tap in the pin on both sides, but this didn't result in the pin protruding from the other side, only to have both sides compressed about 1/8". (see photos).
I'm hesitant to go any further without knowing the mechanism behind this hinge.
One How-To site says to punch out halfway with a brass drift pin, and pull the protruding end out the other side.
Another describes some kind of spring deal, like a watch band pin - which this appears to be more like.
Any tips?
I was able to tap in the pin on both sides, but this didn't result in the pin protruding from the other side, only to have both sides compressed about 1/8". (see photos).
I'm hesitant to go any further without knowing the mechanism behind this hinge.
One How-To site says to punch out halfway with a brass drift pin, and pull the protruding end out the other side.
Another describes some kind of spring deal, like a watch band pin - which this appears to be more like.
Any tips?
Attachments
GunKraut
Senior Member
Easy, guys. Take a look at this K98 disassembly manual (Figures 31-34).
http://www.sportsmanmaps.com/surplusrifle/98kdisassembly2006.pdf
See how tiny the pin is (Figure 32)? It's much smaller than the holes in the "ears" of the rear sight mount. Use a very small punch to drive the pin out.
NOTE: Whenever you try to drive out a pin and its head starts to mushroom, STOP! You can already tell by looking at it that you did something wrong. From there on it will only get worse and you are at danger of significantly decreasing your rifle's value. From what I can tell by looking at the second picture (showing the rifle upside down), it may have gone deeper into the hole of the rear sight leaf. You should try pushing it all way through. One thing you need is solid support of the opposite side. Put a wood block underneath to support the opposite rear sight ear when you tap with the punch. The pin may end up disappearing in the wood block but the way its butchered up already you won't reuse it anyways.
http://www.sportsmanmaps.com/surplusrifle/98kdisassembly2006.pdf
See how tiny the pin is (Figure 32)? It's much smaller than the holes in the "ears" of the rear sight mount. Use a very small punch to drive the pin out.
NOTE: Whenever you try to drive out a pin and its head starts to mushroom, STOP! You can already tell by looking at it that you did something wrong. From there on it will only get worse and you are at danger of significantly decreasing your rifle's value. From what I can tell by looking at the second picture (showing the rifle upside down), it may have gone deeper into the hole of the rear sight leaf. You should try pushing it all way through. One thing you need is solid support of the opposite side. Put a wood block underneath to support the opposite rear sight ear when you tap with the punch. The pin may end up disappearing in the wood block but the way its butchered up already you won't reuse it anyways.
BergerBoy
Well-known member
Well, I managed to get the sight off its pivot.
But I also managed to mess up the pivot pin itself.
The tiny pin came out (at least a piece of it about 3/8" long).
But the outer pin/sleeve is pretty squashed at both ends, and its lodged in the hole of the leaf sight.
So, I've got a double challenge on my hands:
1) How to get the squashed remains of the sleeve out of the pivot hole of the sight, and
2) What to use for a replacement pivot pin/sleeve whenever I decide to replace the original sight.
Wish I would have had better instructions prior to attempting this.
The new sight mount instructions and all the sites I accessed said the same thing - Drive the pivot pin out with a drift punch.
Help!
But I also managed to mess up the pivot pin itself.
The tiny pin came out (at least a piece of it about 3/8" long).
But the outer pin/sleeve is pretty squashed at both ends, and its lodged in the hole of the leaf sight.
So, I've got a double challenge on my hands:
1) How to get the squashed remains of the sleeve out of the pivot hole of the sight, and
2) What to use for a replacement pivot pin/sleeve whenever I decide to replace the original sight.
Wish I would have had better instructions prior to attempting this.
The new sight mount instructions and all the sites I accessed said the same thing - Drive the pivot pin out with a drift punch.
Help!
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Rustybore
Active member
What you are calling a "sleeve" is actually part of the rear sight leaf, they do not come off.
The instructions that tell you to take "the pivot pin" out are wrong, the K98k rear sight leaf actually pivots on two trunnions (the thing you called a sleeve).
The small pin you did take out is probably what they were referring to, but that pin is actually called a "safety" pin.
Looks like you will be shopping for a new rear sight leaf, from looking at picture two I think it is too badly damaged to use again.
Rb.
The instructions that tell you to take "the pivot pin" out are wrong, the K98k rear sight leaf actually pivots on two trunnions (the thing you called a sleeve).
The small pin you did take out is probably what they were referring to, but that pin is actually called a "safety" pin.
Looks like you will be shopping for a new rear sight leaf, from looking at picture two I think it is too badly damaged to use again.
Rb.
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BergerBoy
Well-known member
Thanks RB,
I'm afraid you're right about that damaged trunion.
Wish I would have known better what the system entailed before using a little too much force to remove it.
Anyone got any ideas on repairing the trunion surface so that it pivots smoothly?
I'm not too anxious to replace the entire leaf sight, since its matching to the rifle.
I'm afraid you're right about that damaged trunion.
Wish I would have known better what the system entailed before using a little too much force to remove it.
Anyone got any ideas on repairing the trunion surface so that it pivots smoothly?
I'm not too anxious to replace the entire leaf sight, since its matching to the rifle.
BergerBoy
Well-known member
Hi Rb,
Here's a few more pictures of the damage.
The left side trunion is chewed up pretty bad.
The right side seems to have its outer bearing surface intact - however it looks like the remainder of the internal pin is stuck in the hole (a 3/8" segment of the pin was removed already).
Question is, can this be salvaged?
Are the trunions actually part of the same casting as the leaf sight itself?
Or are they just sleeves that are also pressed into a larger hole in the casting?
Now that I see how the system works, all I really needed to do was press the hinge area down, compressing the spring, and those trunions would have slid out rearward from under the ears on the sight base. (Still not sure what the internal pin actually does, though).
This is a Bolt M/M - otherwise matching 43 CE.
The leaf sight and range slider, and the button's underside cross-sliding piece all are S/N'd and matched to the rest of the rifle.
I guess I could try to find a replacement leaf sight piece that was not S/N'd, but then that would call into question in the future, if it were original.
If at all possible, I'd like to try to un-do the wrongs I've committed to this piece of history!
Here's a few more pictures of the damage.
The left side trunion is chewed up pretty bad.
The right side seems to have its outer bearing surface intact - however it looks like the remainder of the internal pin is stuck in the hole (a 3/8" segment of the pin was removed already).
Question is, can this be salvaged?
Are the trunions actually part of the same casting as the leaf sight itself?
Or are they just sleeves that are also pressed into a larger hole in the casting?
Now that I see how the system works, all I really needed to do was press the hinge area down, compressing the spring, and those trunions would have slid out rearward from under the ears on the sight base. (Still not sure what the internal pin actually does, though).
This is a Bolt M/M - otherwise matching 43 CE.
The leaf sight and range slider, and the button's underside cross-sliding piece all are S/N'd and matched to the rest of the rifle.
I guess I could try to find a replacement leaf sight piece that was not S/N'd, but then that would call into question in the future, if it were original.
If at all possible, I'd like to try to un-do the wrongs I've committed to this piece of history!
Attachments
Mauserguy85
Well-known member
Hi Rb,
Here's a few more pictures of the damage.
The left side trunion is chewed up pretty bad.
The right side seems to have its outer bearing surface intact - however it looks like the remainder of the internal pin is stuck in the hole (a 3/8" segment of the pin was removed already).
Question is, can this be salvaged?
Are the trunions actually part of the same casting as the leaf sight itself?
Or are they just sleeves that are also pressed into a larger hole in the casting?
Now that I see how the system works, all I really needed to do was press the hinge area down, compressing the spring, and those trunions would have slid out rearward from under the ears on the sight base. (Still not sure what the internal pin actually does, though).
This is a Bolt M/M - otherwise matching 43 CE.
The leaf sight and range slider, and the button's underside cross-sliding piece all are S/N'd and matched to the rest of the rifle.
I guess I could try to find a replacement leaf sight piece that was not S/N'd, but then that would call into question in the future, if it were original.
If at all possible, I'd like to try to un-do the wrongs I've committed to this piece of history!
OMG!! What the Heezy have you guys been doing!!??? Noobs....On a mostly matching rifle!?!?! Isn't it clear enough already that one should not be removing rear sights (which arent supposed to be removed anyhow, hence the pin stuck in there) with experimentation or "trial and error" on this type of rifle? Especially to install mounts that usually don't hold zero well anyhow. That's why we have RC folks... So we could bugger them up and repro sniper them or whatever your heart pleases.
I hate to tell you this but you have dramatically lowered the value of your collectable rifle. It's a vet bring back all matching but bolt which matches itself. It is a big deal. I'm sorry but it's time that someone (me) gave you a bit of a scolding....
I now have regrets because I looked over briefly this thread and wanted to reply with a simple question concerning the rifle your going to use but I didn't figure or "missed the fact" that you were gonna attempt pin and sight removal on a bolt mm bring back. Jeez...
Now let's deal with "what's done is done"... You devalued your rifle big time. That sight leaf cannot be repaired to the point where a "a man worth his salt" would be able to tell. I honestly don't even know how one can reshape that side of the leaf whole because I've never seen such damage. What were you using? Screwdriver's and stuff. You were using a flathead to depress the leaf as well, wearent you? Remember guys avoid metal tools on metal parts unless absolutely needed like a spanner wrench to remove the recoil lug nut. Under no circumstances are screwdrivers or wrenches supposed to contact metal parts in your k98ks. Wooden dowels, small rubber mallets, thick towel to shield vice pliers in order to depress and hold band spring for removal... Those are all acceptable methods and I'm sorry to say "common sense" if you care about not knocking off hundreds worth of $$ value from collectables. Safe removal of parts with softer wood is always the way to go!
I just don't see how your going to re-shape (theres nothing to reshape anymore) the leaf so that its smooth and fits right (without rocking left and right since material is now missing). At this point if I was you. I would look for a unnumbered armorers replacement and put that leaf away for safe keeping as proof that it WAS all matching. Theres no way your gonna fix it or improve it to even close to what it was originally. My eyes hurt dude...
The pin was intended and installed by the germans so that the leaf sight doesn't fall out if somehow depresses... Hence it was intended to not be removed unless some freak accident happened where the leaf broke in half.
The "trunnions" are not sleeves that are pressed into the leaf, they are part of the leaf so they are neither replaceable nor removable. The only way to repair this I suspect.... Would be to have someone cut and weld a "truion" into where you massacred the original. Is it possible because of the small size? IDK I'm not a welder....
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Rustybore
Active member
That looks pretty bad.
Yes, the trunnions are an integral part of the milled sight leaf, they are not removable.
Driving out the remainder of the safety pin out of the sight leaf is the easy part. Just make sure that the holes are clear and round and use the correct size drift to tap it out.
The repair of the left trunnion on the other hand is going to be a challenge.
Option 1 would be to take it to a machine shop and have them make a headed pin/sleeve.
Having them then machine off the remains of the damaged trunnion.
Then they would press the headed pin into the sight leaf, and drill a thru hole to accommodate the safety pin.
Option 2 would be to build up the damaged trunnion with TIG welding rod and then machine/shape the trunnion to fit.
Both these options are expensive unless you happen to have all the tools and the skills.
Your best option is to hunt down an armorers replacement rear sight leaf.
Sorry for the bad news, hopefully other options will come from other forum members.
The safety pin's function was to keep the sight leaf from jumping out of it's "track/ears" by accident or under combat conditions.
Rb.
Yes, the trunnions are an integral part of the milled sight leaf, they are not removable.
Driving out the remainder of the safety pin out of the sight leaf is the easy part. Just make sure that the holes are clear and round and use the correct size drift to tap it out.
The repair of the left trunnion on the other hand is going to be a challenge.
Option 1 would be to take it to a machine shop and have them make a headed pin/sleeve.
Having them then machine off the remains of the damaged trunnion.
Then they would press the headed pin into the sight leaf, and drill a thru hole to accommodate the safety pin.
Option 2 would be to build up the damaged trunnion with TIG welding rod and then machine/shape the trunnion to fit.
Both these options are expensive unless you happen to have all the tools and the skills.
Your best option is to hunt down an armorers replacement rear sight leaf.
Sorry for the bad news, hopefully other options will come from other forum members.
The safety pin's function was to keep the sight leaf from jumping out of it's "track/ears" by accident or under combat conditions.
Rb.
BergerBoy
Well-known member
Ouch! Thank you sir, may I have another?
Seriously, scolding taken, and well-deserved.
Chalk it up to the "tinkerer" in me, overtaking the "collector" in me.
I did find a non-numbered replacement leaf online.
If I retrofit that with my numbered slider and button - that's probably the best I can do, right?
Has anyone had any success finding a replacement part such as this with a matching serial number?
Would have to be from another production year, but that would not be an obvious tell-tale later on, since the year was not on any parts except the receiver.
And isn't the rear sight system pretty much "carryover" during the war years?
What are the chances of someone having a 2516 s/n leaf from another year?
I do feel terrible, and want to make it as right as I can.
Seriously, scolding taken, and well-deserved.
Chalk it up to the "tinkerer" in me, overtaking the "collector" in me.
I did find a non-numbered replacement leaf online.
If I retrofit that with my numbered slider and button - that's probably the best I can do, right?
Has anyone had any success finding a replacement part such as this with a matching serial number?
Would have to be from another production year, but that would not be an obvious tell-tale later on, since the year was not on any parts except the receiver.
And isn't the rear sight system pretty much "carryover" during the war years?
What are the chances of someone having a 2516 s/n leaf from another year?
I do feel terrible, and want to make it as right as I can.
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Rustybore
Active member
Forgot to mention this on my prior post.
From looking at the damage, you better take a good look at the rear sight base.
I'm willing to bet it is also damaged!
Check the sides, specially the right, for bending/twisting.
Also check the trunnion groove in the rear sight base for gouges, displaced metal.
The rear sight base is made of much softer metal than the rear sight leaf and it is easily damaged.
Good luck
Rb.
From looking at the damage, you better take a good look at the rear sight base.
I'm willing to bet it is also damaged!
Check the sides, specially the right, for bending/twisting.
Also check the trunnion groove in the rear sight base for gouges, displaced metal.
The rear sight base is made of much softer metal than the rear sight leaf and it is easily damaged.
Good luck
Rb.
Mauserguy85
Well-known member
IMO, you can't make it right but you can make it OKAY. In my few years of exclusively collecting k98ks (17 rifles so far) I am yet to find a matching to my serial part. So while I will say its possible, how often do you win the mega millions lottery?
JP Sauer (CE) is my thing, they are my favorite of all the manufacturer/assemblers of 98k rifles and I have the most of them. JP Sauer is usually referred to as an oddball maker. They used very unique to others processes. For example, the receivers which were supplied by Erma or Walther (CE didn't make their own receivers) we're roll marked with the receiver codes, polished over and then blued. All the other makers polished the receiver first (up until late war), roll marked the codes and then blued. That's why Sauer usually appears to have "light stamped" or worn receiver codes. Plus they also used a trademark small eagle firing proof, small stock takedown discs and unique serial number font and lettering called sutterlin script.
Point is.... To find a JPS with that special font 4 digit serial on a replacement sight leaf will be practically if not impossible. Now on 2 of my 4 ce43 examples... The sight leaf is once proofed with a 359 (walther) or 280 (Erma) and my 4 digit serials. They both supplied sight components to Sauer. The other 2 have no proof, but just the serial. So you have a few options. Find a unnumbered 359 or 280 sight leaf (armorers replacement) or a unnumbered and unserialed leaf (usually from post war Czech examples). If we're gonna get really technical... Any unnumbered but manufacturer proofed (armorers replacement) leaf should work because as parts were replaced after being damaged in the field by the field armorers... They used any unnumbered manufactuer proofed parts that were in the parts crate. It's not like they called up JPS from the front and said "Hey I need a walther unnumbered sight leaf, when can you guys have it shipped to me"....
Now please don't tinker with this example anymore... Get yourself an RC or even a post war czech from samco for $220 bucks.... And mess with those if you have to! By tinkering with your bring back, your just hurting yourself and the rifles value in the long run.
BergerBoy
Well-known member
Thanks Mauserguy, RustyBore, and Clint.
Definitely should have waited for all the "sage" advice that's coming in now, after the butcher job.
Instead of relying on the roughly translated-from-Chinese instructions that came with the after market scope mount, that only stated: "punch out pivot pin with drift punch".
Or the "SportsmanMaps" instructions linked-to in an early post on this thread (see screen-shots from that step-by-step).
Live and Learn - and hopefully can try to make it right.
I can order a replacement original sight leaf with no numbers, and fit my slider and button (both numbered) onto it.
And then all I'll need is a new pin.
The "ears" on the sight base don't look marred at all, but may have been shifted slightly by my "tapping" of the pin.
I'll do my best to straighted them out when the replacement sight arrives - looks like "Historical Parts and Militaria" out of Texas has a good inventory of miscellaneous 98K parts.
Any other sources to try?
I'll need a replacement original leaf sight and pivot pin (does it need to specifically be a Sauer rear sight leaf? or are they non-armorer specific?).
Thanks again
Definitely should have waited for all the "sage" advice that's coming in now, after the butcher job.
Instead of relying on the roughly translated-from-Chinese instructions that came with the after market scope mount, that only stated: "punch out pivot pin with drift punch".
Or the "SportsmanMaps" instructions linked-to in an early post on this thread (see screen-shots from that step-by-step).
Live and Learn - and hopefully can try to make it right.
I can order a replacement original sight leaf with no numbers, and fit my slider and button (both numbered) onto it.
And then all I'll need is a new pin.
The "ears" on the sight base don't look marred at all, but may have been shifted slightly by my "tapping" of the pin.
I'll do my best to straighted them out when the replacement sight arrives - looks like "Historical Parts and Militaria" out of Texas has a good inventory of miscellaneous 98K parts.
Any other sources to try?
I'll need a replacement original leaf sight and pivot pin (does it need to specifically be a Sauer rear sight leaf? or are they non-armorer specific?).
Thanks again
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I have to admit I just read this thread, as there are plenty of guys that can help a member take a sight off if needed. I think this is in order......
But I will say I've made mistakes in my time which are due to being green...I chalk it up to the "that guy" syndrome. 100 years from now some collector will wonder why the rear sight is all boogered up. You, sir, will be "that guy" that did it. I've been "that guy" before.
But I will say I've made mistakes in my time which are due to being green...I chalk it up to the "that guy" syndrome. 100 years from now some collector will wonder why the rear sight is all boogered up. You, sir, will be "that guy" that did it. I've been "that guy" before.