S/243 1938 - Early Laminate Stock - Spotted then vanished

[Guillaume d'Orange]

Happy new year everyone,

I had spotted an S/243 1938 on a French auction site, but then it vanished.
The ejector box was mismatched, but had pre-war markings. The blueing was in good/very good condition.

What it is interesting is the early laminate (matching) stock with the flat buttplate and the fact that the s/n has no block letter : never seen one before.
The fact the rifle was manufactured from the leading firm in the development of laminate stocks and that it was among the first tens of thousands with such stock may have given it some value.

I attach pics from the seller, maybe it will resurface again somewhere else.

 

[JACKDANIELS]

Very nice gun, thank you for sharing
You found it in which region, do you know its history?
Happy New Year

 

[toulon44]

hello

well , is this one coming from natura buy ?

ber

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

Hi jack, hi ber, best wishes to you,

Yes, it was an auction on Naturabuy. I saved the pics for my own archives as I thought the stock was an interesting detail (the seller thought it was a replacement, he commented that laminate stocks do not appear before 1939, which is wrong), but decided not to bid on it. I tried to check the last bidding price yesterday, but could not find it. I guess the seller has either cancelled the auction or a buyer negotiated the price directly.

When I checked the price on the 31st, the last bid was 633 EUR (well below its value, in my opinion).

Guillaume

 

[JACKDANIELS]

Hello Guillaume,

I know a 1938 mauser with stratified stock, it is an obendorf, it is also the first k98 that I saw, it was in 1981 and I saw it again 5 years ago but I think that this one is very very early.
It may be a replacement stock on deposit
I have a code 243 from 1940 with an Obendorf stock from 1935 and Posen markings, the number is stamped on the inside, Ber knows it
Was the number on the butt depicted on natura?

Fred

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

Hello Guillaume,

I know a 1938 mauser with stratified stock, it is an obendorf, it is also the first k98 that I saw, it was in 1981 and I saw it again 5 years ago but I think that this one is very very early.
It may be a replacement stock on deposit
I have a code 243 from 1940 with an Obendorf stock from 1935 and Posen markings, the number is stamped on the inside, Ber knows it
Was the number on the butt depicted on natura?

Fred

Hi Fred,
Regarding laminated stocks, there was a thread recently about when they started:
https://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?44593-When-Did-The-Laminates-Start
There are documents proving when Oberndorf started, but nothing about Borsigwalde.
There's a w block S/42 1937 in the pic sticky:
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?51-S-42-1937-Laminated-6040w&p=113,
but no S/243 1937 or S/243 1938 with a laminated stock.

If you look at the pics, the serial number on the buttplate (3438) matches the bolt and the stock acceptance stamp is a e/280 which is correct for the period: the stock looks original to me and as the s/n has no suffix, that's an early one assembled in 1938 (the stock was almost surely made end of 1937).

I would be glad to see pics of your depot 243 1940, sounds like an interesting one.

A bientôt,

Guillaume

 

[JACKDANIELS]

Ok , je n'avais pas vu le numéro de série sur la plaque de couche (3438).

My 1940 depot 243 is shown here, a previous owner notched the butt for a ZF41 project

https://www.tircollection.com/t37684-k98-code-243-de-1940

I put some pictures here for our American hosts

See your soon

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

Ok , je n'avais pas vu le numéro de série sur la plaque de couche (3438).

My 1940 depot 243 is shown here, a previous owner notched the butt for a ZF41 project

https://www.tircollection.com/t37684-k98-code-243-de-1940

I put some pictures here for our American hosts

See your soon

I have seen the other pics on tircollection and Ber's comment : I doubt it comes from Posen (seemingly this depot is identified with a "XXI" stamp).
That's an unusual and interesting Borsigwalde: the rear sight, the floorplate and the front band look like spare parts (those with e/63 made by Mauser Oberndorf) and some have been restamped with the original serial number 8817. As you wrote before, the stock may be from a S/42 G (E/211).
Do you know the meaning of the e/815 markings (attached pics from tircollection) ? It may explain where the rifle has been, it's worth a post on the forum, in my opinion.

Salutations,

Guillaume

 

[heavy_mech]

e/815 looks like Steyr?

 

[JACKDANIELS]

Thank you,
Yes I have a file that mentions Steyr for the Waa815 but I only see in volume 2b of the book for Steyr only Waa623 and Waa77
the associated manufacturer codes are 98E, bnz, kur, tbv
Maybe it's just the acceptance of some subcontracting part?
If you have any information, she's welcome

 

[heavy_mech]

One of the sources I use shows e/815 as 'Steyr Werk, Graz, 1941-42'. By the style I'd say it's certainly earlier rather than later.

 

[toulon44]

hello

the "XXI" stamp is found on new built 98k by POSEN , not on repaired/ reworked rifles by this depot .
about the laminated stock the earlier borsigwalde that i have recorded is a 1938 , 243 code in the "d" bloc .

ber

on the fred's 98k it's a S/42G salvaged stock reused , and renumbered by i think posen depot

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

hello

the "XXI" stamp is found on new built 98k by POSEN , not on repaired/ reworked rifles by this depot .
about the laminated stock the earlier borsigwalde that i have recorded is a 1938 , 243 code in the "d" bloc .

ber

on the fred's 98k it's a S/42G salvaged stock reused , and renumbered by i think posen depot

Hi Ber, what makes you think the rework has been done by Posen (I know nothing about depots, but eager to learn) ?
Do you have an opinion on the parts with e/815 ?
That rifle on Naturabuy could probably replace your block "d" as an early sample. Had you seen it before it disappeared ? If someone has bought it, I hope the new buyer will take care of it.

Guillaume

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

One of the sources I use shows e/815 as 'Steyr Werk, Graz, 1941-42'. By the style I'd say it's certainly earlier rather than later.

Hi heavy_mech, any speculation about what might have happened to jack's rifle ?

 

[heavy_mech]

No I'm sorry I do not as to how the rifle came to be that way. Some good observations and theories but also more questions. As for the floor plate I'd never seen one before either so when I looked at the Graz operations making parts such as this would certainly have been in their capabilities. Maybe it was some sort of pilot project to diversify away from Steyr proper or they had a short run of pieces for the ordinance spares?

 

[JACKDANIELS]

Hello Guillaume

I can't comment on the possibility of a test run in early 1938 before the d block but I'm surprised the NATURABUY seller didn't put a photo of the number under the butt (underside).
I also hope to see it again one day on a forum and that it is 100% authentic

See your soon

 

[toulon44]

Hi Ber, what makes you think the rework has been done by Posen (I know nothing about depots, but eager to learn) ?
Do you have an opinion on the parts with e/815 ?
That rifle on Naturabuy could probably replace your block "d" as an early sample. Had you seen it before it disappeared ? If someone has bought it, I hope the new buyer will take care of it.

Guillaume

hello guillaume

the location and the design of the controls depot stamps , yes i have seen the NB 243 but i had a doubt with the laminated stock , the seller has told that it hadn't the same S/N due to a replacement and without specifics pics impossible to say if it's good or not , generally the stocks were renumbered by the depot to match the rifle .
about the 815 , the first and last i have seen is on the fred's 98k .may be heavy mech is right .

ber