S84/98ms 2nd Model Hörster Commercial

[bruce98k]

As part of the additional work on my bayo book, I located an example of this variation, an fairly scarce 2nd model commercial sawback by E&F Horster.
I referred to this as a "Dagger H" version in the book but have recently updated it to "Sword H" based on the input of my peer review team.

Would appreciate any comments by the gang. No military acceptance of any kind, as the few examples that have surfaced also exhibit.

 

[pwcosol]

Never heard or seen this variant...very nice, indeed!

 

[AndyB]

very nice, S84/98nA with the sawback it should be imperial probably, even the Horstator TM is mainly postwar examined.

 

[Amberg]

By order of the German Ministry of War, dated July, 23rd 1917, the production of saw back bayonets was stopped.
Hörster probably still had some saw back bayonets in stock that they could no longer sell to the Army.

 

[Fulton bulldog]

As part of the additional work on my bayo book, I located an example of this variation, an fairly scarce 2nd model commercial sawback by E&F Horster.
I referred to this as a "Dagger H" version in the book but have recently updated it to "Sword H" based on the input of my peer review team.

Would appreciate any comments by the gang. No military acceptance of any kind, as the few examples that have surfaced also exhibit.er 98k

After getting mike and your karabine 98k books for fathers day . Put me down for your bayonet book. Thanks

 

[bruce98k]

The main reason for my inquiry is to date the rig.
Any way to localize the period of manufacture or best just to estimate a date range.

Somewhere in the near post-WW1 period (1919-22)?

Thanks,
B.

 

[mauser99]

By order of the German Ministry of War, dated July, 23rd 1917, the production of saw back bayonets was stopped.
Hörster probably still had some saw back bayonets in stock that they could no longer sell to the Army.

its a good theory.. But, we also see the simple measure of the saw blades removed and these bladed reused. Possibly export ? or other ?

 

[AndyB]

I would think it could be used as a NCO or Offizer Sidearm in war time period -blackened handle, the tiny rivet on mouth piece of scabbard is too not standard, should be measured the width of blade as it looks like the lightened narow pattern. Similar wout sawback were used postwar on some organisation but not army.

 

[bruce98k]

Yes the handle, flashguard and scabbard have remnants of very old and aged black paint.
Pretty sure its period.

If WWI NCO or private purchase, could have been brought back to the US as a war trophy.

When did Horster begin using that logo?

 

[Amberg]

I can not help you with the Hörster logo, but
an imperial German NCO would not have wasted his money for something he could get for free at the armory. Officers preferred trench knifes as a sidearm.

But, we also see the simple measure of the saw blades removed and these bladed reused.

right, but the tests with such bayonets were not completed any earlier than January 1918.

What about civil organizations like the "Freiwillige Krankenpflege". They were allowed to carry weapons, but did not get their stuff from the Army.
See attached photo. The man standing next to the fender is carrying a bayonet. Other photos are known, showing members of the Freiwilligen Krankenpflege with bayonets, swords, trench knifes, helmets, gas masks ......

 

[pwcosol]

Yes the handle, flashguard and scabbard have remnants of very old and aged black paint. Pretty sure its period. If WWI NCO or private purchase, could have been brought back to the US as a war trophy. When did Horster begin using that logo?

I took a look in Carter's German Sword and Knife Makers A-L and he stated "Earlier S84/98, probably made during the late 1920s and supplied tot he Navy, were stamped with small sword and H marks." It appears the bayonet you pictured and described precedes this contract. Carter mentions EuF Horster S84/98 production was primarily known from 1915-16 but some of their bayonets also had no date stamp on the spine. Since the latter is typically part of the Imperial acceptance marking, one would tend to think these were privat-purchase sidearms for officers and some other ranks. Since the piece in question also has a flashguard, it was made to German Mil-Spec at the time, which one would not expect to see in a strictly post-WW2 made example. My guess would be 1916-17 production for privat-purchase. As for the remnants of black paint, whom knows from when or where this originated...

 

[grimlin13]

My guess would be 1916-17 production for privat-purchase. As for the remnants of black paint, whom knows from when or where this originated...

If your guess for production is correct, couldn`t this bayonet have been painted black to comply with the order given to "blacken" trench knives, bayonets,etc. late (1917?) in the war?

 

[Amberg]

From what I was told by a fellow collector, the Hörster logo showed up first on the Dutch M1898 Klewang.

....... to comply with the order given to "blacken" trench knives, bayonets,etc. late (1917?)

I've never heard about such an order. Any source for this?
Thanks!

 

[bruce98k]

Fred, during all the research for my bayo book years ago, and the decades since, I have never encountered an Horster made Imperial military accepted S84/98nA in any configuration.
Horster was a minor contractor for the KS98, and of course made S98/05 and S98s.
I am not sure where Carter got that information, but I was unable to confirm that, so IMO, they were not a supplier for military S84/98na.

 

[AndyB]

I assume Carter used the short info from Ruediger where is declared under Hoerster production of S84/98, question remains it were offizial contract, when not any proofed bayonet occured?

 

[Slash]

Bruce,
The two line Hörster marking on the OP bayonet is identical to one of the marking variations found on the kS98 if that helps date it in any way. I don't know that it does. Keep in mind that Hörster made both military contract and behoerden versions of the kS98. I also do not feel it is accurate to declare that Hörster was a "minor" contractor for the kS98 as modern observations of bayonets recorded would indicate otherwise. Their bayonets are extremely common especially 1913 and 1914.

 

[Jackson]

Very interesting thread.

The Horster "Sword H" (I call it "HHS") has plagued me as well in researching the Horster dress kS98 sawbacks. Some points -

- Horster was very deliberate in how and where they stamped their bayonets. For example, Horster received four contracts to manufacture kS98 sawbacks for the military in 1913 & 1914 and each contract has a very specific placement and style of Horster marking. In the same way, all war-time Horster private purchase (pp) bayonets (S84/98 and kS98) have the italic two line E.&F. HÖRSTER stamp on the reverse ricasso. So, there is little doubt that the bayonet in question was intended for private purchase and not an official contract. As found by others, none of the Horster S84/98nAS examples I have had myself have had any inspection marks or cyphers. On that point, just to note that the presence of an inspection mark does not mean that an Imperial bayonet was official military issue; many private purchase bayonets have a single inspection mark on their bolts, press studs or even crossguards. For example, most Horster pp kS98 will have a single C inspection mark somewhere.

- The HHS marking has been considered to be a post-war stamp. However, like this S84/98, some examples of one pp kS98 model are also found with the E.&F. HÖRSTER mark and/or HHS stamp. I have always assumed that these represented Imperial-era bayonets that were sold after the war and given the HHS at the time. The HHS stamp can often be placed rather awkwardly on the ricasso as though an after thought. However, again, just to note that not all immediate post-war Horster have the HHS stamp. Overall, the use of the HHS stamp seems somewhat haphazard on post-war bayonets.

- The scabbard shown here is the standard private purchase Horster scabbard. It is very distinctive and only found on Imperial and immediate post-war Horster pp bayonets. It has a rather small frog stud and no throat insert with two small rivets on front and back holding the retaining springs.

Ian Jackson

Imperial German bayonets

www.imperial-german-bayonets.net

 

[Tom Steil]

Any news when the 98K Bayonet book might be completed? Thanks

 

[bruce98k]

Tom the reprint ends at 1933-34 time frame, so there are no military 3rd models covered (ie. 1934 to 1945).
The primary subject is the 2nd model S84/98.

Regards,
Bruce