Seitengewehr 14 Bayerische Griechischer Messer

[PrayingMantis]

Recently I have been interested in the S14s variations, and after consulting a friend I picked this up. Bavarian used conversion of a Greek bayonet made by Simson. Neat that it’s marked with the c/R acceptance that you see on Bavarian weapons across the board.

 

[AndyB]

Nice piece of S14 made from greek M03/14 contract bayonet, i believe the proof letter on parts is K, is well known from early 1914/15 production. The letter is opened in upper position, by R it would be closed.

 

[PrayingMantis]

Thanks, Andy. Here is a view of the acceptance stamp on a Amberg bolt. I used to put it as c/K in my notes, but I’m pretty convinced now it’s c/R.

 

[AndyB]

This is R but on bayonets are K. You compare parts which should be not compared. Bolt assembly proofed different inspectors as edged weapons.

 

[Warrior1354]

Same accepted proof on my 98a Amberg carbine as well. To me, it doesn't make sense to have a completely different line of inspectors for just a different category of weapons.

 

[AndyB]

Offcoarse the bavarian used different proofs on rifle system parts and bayonets. Sorry to say, but You dont see the differences here, this is fraktur font. Personally it doesnt not matter what is there, evidently enough pieces are to compare by R.Williams , Voronov and other books presented with real bavarian bayonets. On rifles are minimum 3-5 proofs not one letter as there was system parts controled by one controller, mainly by earlier rifles is this visible Gew71, Gew71/84.

 

[AndyB]

1915 Amberg 7648h

Hi All, Hope everyone had a nice Christmas. I'm back in town from a nice Holiday trip to the Cascade Mountains and off until 1/3, so might as well catch up on getting some stuff documented. This one I found earlier this year at a local gun show- I was frankly astounded, as any Gew98s I've...

www.k98kforum.com

Different proofs on Amberg 1915. There exist many matching rifles, that have different proof on rings, receiver, buttstock on same rifle. As the system parts were controled by smaller inspector with different name on. the main proof is on receiver and buttstock.

 

[PrayingMantis]

Same accepted proof on my 98a Amberg carbine as well. To me, it doesn't make sense to have a completely different line of inspectors for just a different category of weapons.

View attachment 355918

Nice example Jordan, super jealous of that one btw!

 

[PrayingMantis]

This is R but on bayonets are K. You compare parts which should be not compared. Bolt assembly proofed different inspectors as edged weapons.

Take a look at this Bavarian bayonet https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/seitengewehr-98-na-cg-haenel-o03.49632/
Not only are the grip screws c/R with a clear R, which as you mentioned could be late replacement but the rest of acceptance is c/W, much like some acceptance on an Amberg 1902: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/gewehr-98-amberg-1902-1278.56175/
Bayonets and rifles definitely shared inspectors. Erfurt is the same with the c/T. It may now make much sense, since they are very different weapons, but it happened.

On my Amberg/Herder L15 bayonet the spine acceptance is different than the one you show. Mine all around is a mix of c/J, c/G, c/W, but all are stamps that you find on Amberg rifles and other Bavarian bayonets. The only part on mine that is c/R is the catch, which is very clearly c/R. https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/seitengewehr-98-05-na-amberg-herder-l15.47037/

 

[AndyB]

The last one S98/05aA piece is clearly mixed one, evidently visible on not proper locking lug not flashed with pommel, and dismounted grips, note the removed countersunk and removing traces. This piece was overhauled and is not in origin fabric condition.
There exist many matching proofed pieces in untouched condition. Rifle didnt have only one inspector, by bayonets this was normal condition, that all parts were proofed with one inspector.
I dont see what You have on Your other bayonets but when You believe that the proof letter on the S14 made from greek bayonet is identical with the R proof on bolt, so You should compare it side by side by magnifying glass.

 

[AndyB]

When You have a Roy Williams book vol.I, there is enough pieces with identical proof letter K on Amberg, bayonet nr.316, 318. too on page 448. Same as on pg385 on KS98 L14 marked.

 

[PrayingMantis]

The last one S98/05aA piece is clearly mixed one, evidently visible on not proper locking lug not flashed with pommel, and dismounted grips, note the removed countersunk and removing traces. This piece was overhauled and is not in origin fabric condition.
There exist many matching proofed pieces in untouched condition. Rifle didnt have only one inspector, by bayonets this was normal condition, that all parts were proofed with one inspector.
I dont see what You have on Your other bayonets but when You believe that the proof letter on the S14 made from greek bayonet is identical with the R proof on bolt, so You should compare it side by side by magnifying glass.

I will do that and get a photo. In the mean time, i vehemently argue against bayonets having only one acceptance. Take this prewar Bavarian sawback, mostly c/J but a distinct c/R (or c/K) on the crossguard: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/seitengewehr-98-05-mit-sage-coppel-o13.55454/

 

[PrayingMantis]

And here’s a friends Amberg 98/05. C/J cross guard, c/M hilt, and c/G screws like mine, but c/M spine. I think that multiple inspectors worked on bayonets, just like Gewehre, maybe c/J was the final inspector.

 

[AndyB]

There are unfortunally various problems, firstly the Amberg was mashiner /finisher not supply of blade blanks as this was Herder in that cases, secondly You present here a refurbishment mostly from S98/05aA to S98/05nA when was applied the flashguard and crossguard ears were removed. Amberg ended finishing bayonets with 1915. The inspector proof were moved to Fichtel Sachs into period of 1916.
The period of 1914 which is confirmed was K proof on KS98 bayonets (all parts only K proofed, link to R.Wiliams book above), continued into early 1915 with K letter on S98/05aA configuration ( greek S14 and picture in my answer nr2 here and Voronov book), by middle of 1915 the inspector was changed to J stamp, which is visible on various samples with K on blade but 2xJ on pommel in links that i provided to You in my answers here above, here Your last presented piece is switch from inspector J to M (crossguard is part from previous production proofed J).
Normally by prewar production one inspector was added on all parts of bayonet, by switch of inspector or by refurbishment offcoarse the markings could be different proofs but only 2 letters normally as the pommel one is a definitive last proof not the blade proof, by 3x different proofs is most as real there was done some rework, in this case it should refurbishment with new flashguard and grips rework and reacceptance. There exist many samples in untouched condition. You could look at Solingen production in war period, there are one inspector proof on all parts as normal.
The switch to S98/05nA was done in Bavaria post september 1915, majority of K proofed Amberg should be made from period of S98/05aA and when they are with flashguards it means they were reworked directly post production to new S98/05nA standarts, which have smaller ears on crosspiece, flashguard and reworked grips.
Anyway for me is clear here the presented proof letter on first S14 bayonet is not R but K, which is confirmed on various period other bayonets as KS98, S98/05 1914 and early 1915 made or proofed in Bayern.

 

[PrayingMantis]

I concede, it is a K. It’s odd to me that the K and R acceptance look so similar, and Ks only appear on bayonets while Rs only on rifles when M, J, and G are all the same on both. But that’s how it is. Thanks for taking the time to argue it through.

Interesting side note about reworks, I have this Erfurt W12 sawback that has Bavarian grips, with the round hole and c/K screws.

 

[AndyB]

Yes is difficult to differentiate,that is problem by fraktur alphabet used by stamps, i worked on some corrections of bayonet books, so was focused on that area. I looked yesterday to the period of 1914 /15 is evidently there was a lot of changes in Bavaria and the inspectors were heavily changed, K 1914-15, J, M, O, E, in 1915-16 which ended by H in 1917-18. Which is certainly problematic is by reworks, mainly as in end of 1915 the change from aA to nA were realised. Some of the inspectors evidently were involved in rifle production but some probably only by edged weapons inspection. For more info we needed the bavarian archives about arms proofing.
Yes Your last piece is a nice rework of a S98/05aAS probably from Pioneer Batallion, which You could date the grips sets of bavaria to 1914/early 1915.