Steyr 1890

[k98dave]

Picked this up last week. I'm not really into these but the condition was what caught my attention as the best one I have come across and bore is nice and bright too. It has some unit markings and also Turkish marking. It has the thinner barrel taper ahead of chamber. Seems to be various thoughts on the "S" marking and J bore-vs JS bore determination. It does have the magazine block plate dated 1915. I plan to have bore slugged to be sure if I ever decide to make up some light loads.

Opinions gents?

 

[Warrior1354]

Neat rifle and unit marked to the 75th Infantry Regiment that was part of the 17th Division.

Interesting details about the 75th at Flanders in 1917. This was from the "Histories of two hundred and fifty-one divisions of the German army" book.

On September 23 it again entrained for Flanders. Sent by way of Cambrai to Ledeghem, it went into action in the Polygon wood sector (northeast of Ypres). On September 26 it counterattacked without success and with great losses. It only remained in line for two days. In these engagements the 75th Infantry Regiment lost 30 officers and 1,000 men (British Summary of Information.)

VALUE—1918 ESTIMATE.​

The division was rated as first class. It was one of the best German divisions. Its conduct in the March offensive won the Kaiser’s praise. Until August it was relatively fresh, but after that was engaged almost constantly in efforts to check the Allied offensive in Champagne. At the end the division was so reduced in numbers that it could muster but one or two battalions.

Its morale was excellent until late in the fall, when it was lowered noticeably. A mutiny and other acts of indiscipline were reported.

 

[Gerst]

I like it

 

[chrisftk]

That's a nice one Dave, the vast majority of Turk rifles tend to be rough, sanded, etc...

I like the Steyr 88s. I think the contract with them was a bit of recompense for the usage of the mannlichers enbloc system in the 88 pattern.

You probably know this, but this is an 88/05. These were a pre-war attempt to modify the 88 to accept stripper clips and clearing them for the newly-introduced S. Patrone. I will briefly summarize:

-a new rear sight was installed without any provision for a flip-up sight. (Optimized for the new ammo)
-magazine was reworked to accept charger clips and guides for them were plug welded to the receiver bridge.
-a notch was milled in the bottom of the receiver ring; this was to accommodate 88 patrone (it is a popular misconception that this was for the S. Patrone "spitzer" ammo, but the 88 ammo is longer and would need the added clearance)
-the stock and right receiver ring were given an additional acceptance character to indicate that the work was completed.
-the dust covers were not part of the original 88/05 program. They were added later to protect the magazine from dirt and mud from the battlefields. The 1915 on yours is just when the cover was manufactured, the conversion was done much earlier.

Once Gew98 production was ample to supply German forces, a substantial number of 88/05 were given to the Ottomans as war aid. These had their rear sights scrubbed and restamped in eastern Arabic and sometimes crescents were added to the receiver.

You may want to take the barrel shroud off and see if it's a German barrel. If so, it's probably safe to shoot American market 8x57 out of it. If it's a postwar Czech barrel, those have a smaller diameter and are a bit more problematic. I've never shot one with one of them, so I would defer to someone like Ernie who seems to have more experience with the odd ones.

Anyway, nice pickup!

 

[ernie8]

There were no small Czech barrels ever put on a 88/05 . They only went on some of the Gew-88's that went to South America . There is no such thing as J or JS bores . Since it is an early thin barrel on a 88/05 it will have the original .3208 groove barrel that it was made with . So as stated , any early type US made ammo , REM or WIN , will have the .321 dia bullet and will be safe to shoot . The bore size [ land ] will be stamped on the side of the rear sight - ex = 7.91 is .3114 . But unlike the popular misconception , Chris got the notch and stripper guides right !

 

[k98dave]

From what little reference material I have on these, that being Mauser Vol 1 L. Guillo It reported some 132k were supplied to Turkey. This one seemed to have survived well. The rear sight is marked with a very small 7.9 but still has the flip up sight ladder. I came across a small number of old .318 round nose bullets so if I decide to shoot it will use those loaded to the low end of the pressure/fps data.

 

[AndyB]

This is a Reserve inf. Regiment nr.75. The old number on sight is still visible on rand, the old serial were removed and new arabic digits were added.

RIR 75 – GenWiki

wiki.genealogy.net

 

[Stan]

Very nice! You don't see too many Turk used 88/05's still matching to that degree anymore. Is the bolt matching?

 

[PrayingMantis]

I'd bet this one didn't actually make it to the Ottomans, hence why it didn't get an Turkish overhaul and is still mostly matching. The Arabic rear sights were made and installed by the Germans.

Good call on the unit mark, Andy, i missed that at first glance. the 75th Reserve was part of the 17th Reserve Division until 1916 when it transferred to the 211th Division:

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/55620/55620-h/55620-h.htm#Page_279

 

[ernie8]

I have seen some that did come from Turkey that did not have a Turk overhaul , they looked untouched . Also a bunch of Gew-88/05's were sold to Turkey by the Czech post WWI . And the Czechs did those sights , just compare them to the Czech - Turk M-22 Mauser rear sights , they are the same number stamps.

 

[Stan]

The first centerfire rifle I owned back in the mid 70's was a Danzig 1894 Gew 88/05 with the old style Turkish numbered rear sight still and the Crescent moon stamp on the receiver for $45. The s/n was 530 w, but don't recall if any of the rest of the rifle was matching. I didn't take note of such things back then unfortunately. As I recall, a fair number of 88/05's got imported back then with Turkish numbered rear sights. Here's an old ad from 1973. It only hints of "Turkish use". Don't know if they were imported from there though.

 

[AndyB]

When the sights are serialed to rifle, i hard to believe czechoslovak would send serialed sights, is evidently this old sights were restamped with eastern arabic digits by delivery to Turkey from Germany or directly in Turkey. There is no report that large numbers of Gew88 were delivered from CS same as no report about Gew88/05 was there. Only production was realised of Gew88 bolts made for Turkey prior 1928 which means they are serialed in same way as here also with turkish digits.

 

[PrayingMantis]

I have seen some that did come from Turkey that did not have a Turk overhaul , they looked untouched . Also a bunch of Gew-88/05's were sold to Turkey by the Czech post WWI . And the Czechs did those sights , just compare them to the Czech - Turk M-22 Mauser rear sights , they are the same number stamps.

I'm skeptical that the Czechs renumbered the sights, though i know they supplied plenty of replacement bolts. Here is a comparison of the renumbered 88 sights next to a VZ 98/22. The characters, while both Arabic, are distinctly different. You know more than me about 88s by far, Ernie, but without a source or at least photos i'm not convinced. I believe Storz mentions that the Germans did the work, i will have to look in the Modell 88 book this weekend (unless someone can check sooner?).
Here is Sam's, which also has the Arabic rear sight, but has no other signs of Ottoman/Turkish use. It has a matching sight slider, and you can even seen the remains of the original numbers that were obliterated when the channels were milled for the Arabic markings: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/turkish-tomato-stake-danzig-88-05-1890.55656/

 

[ernie8]

The Czechs sent whole rifles to Turkey , not sights . Some sights may have been done by the Germans on the war aid rifles , but some were also done by the Czechs later . The Czechs got many Gew-88 rifles from the old A-H empire , some of the ones they sold to SA . They also got a lot of ex German 05's and parts . I have several 88 bolts with the CZ stamp on them , but you can see the remains of the old German stamp under it . There is no set answer to what parts the Czech made or just reused . Even up to the M-22 Mausers , some have various reused German parts .

 

[AndyB]

Similar opinion that czechoslovak sent any Gew88 to Turkey from AH empire are not confirmed on any real sources. Firstly You should look what was send from DR to AH empire (Hintermeier book), there were no Gew88/05 only old Gew88 rifles in old M88 cartridge, secondly the rifles were used primary on Italian front and by Landsturm and Landwehr units, and logically majority of them remained in area of Italy or new Yugoslavia. The listing of postwar CS depot speaks about 5xxx Gew88 rifles in storage. So no real contracts to Turkey or other countries could be realised from this. There is exact contract for over 50000 Bolts Gew88 made in CSZB for Turkey post 1925. Same as there is large contract of barells Gew88 to South america Equador.

 

[ernie8]

You are not understanding what I say . I never said the Czech's sent any Gew-88's to Turkey , They did not . They only sent the Gew-88/05's to Turkey . They sent the Gew-88's to South America AFTER WWI . What remained in Czech storage had nothing to do with what they sold world wide . At least some of the Czech small bore rebarreled Gew-88's were rebarreled by the Czechs as I have one that was a WWII bring back by an US 3rd Army doctor . The Czechs got rifles and parts from many sources Post WWI . Just because you have not seen something listed , does not mean it did not happen . Like the large lot of 1918 Gew-98 rifles shipped to Turkey through Switzerland post WWI listed as unfinished metal goods .

 

[AndyB]

Sorry to say but i dont understand Your points, and where You got similar info, any sources avialable?. I read nearly all avialable gun books published in czech and slovak language of period 1945-today. The handling or selling of long firearms as army rifles were exclusively handled only by few factories in prewar CSR, when You speak about commerzial market so its certainly not large contracts that could be realised. One of important factories was Zbrojovka Brno, of which i had the complete history read from Franek and contracts that i have presented here is the info from it. Turkey didnt got any Gew88/05 from Czechoslovakia, because they sent there only Gew98 rifles and 98/22 rifles from CS army depot and which were overhauled by ZB before selling into Turkey. Sending barells to South america doesnt mean the rifles were overhauled in CSR, but they only sent the barells and the barells were refurbished locally.
About G88/05 You should read what wrote H.D.Goetz in book Die Deutschen Militaergewehre und Maschinenpistolen 1871-1945. Gew88/05 and Gew88/14 were sent to Turkey prior april 1918, from Hintermeier book it was minimum 142xxx rifles. Goetz speaks that the small remains of Gew88/05 and 14 that was in Germany ended melted down in 1919/20 period. p.104.

 

[AndyB]

"The Czechs got rifles and parts from many sources Post WWI"
Certainly similar opinion are strange as the Franek and Smid spent years in CS archives to find every information about buying of arms for CS, same about history of all firms producing firearms in Czechoslovakia and there is exact described each contract, CS army was focused to Mannlicher M95 in period 1918-20, post 1920 it was switched to Mauser 98 system, there was no any interest to obtain a obsolete G88 system in this or later period, the small inventory that was reported was of M13 /14 rifles from AH empire, which means there was attached to G88 even some of 7mm M12 Mausers inside this numbers, and they went for Jelen prototypes and remains was sold to Kingdom of SHS quickly. In Czechoslovakia didnt exist Banermann or similar firms pre WW2, that would handle with large number of army rifles, there were french and italian armament commisions which controled each arms buying to CS prior 1923. With Turkey could be not made any arms contracts prior 1925 as it has lost the first world war.
Designation of CS origin were destined by Z in circle stamp, which is control mark of Zbrojovka Brno, of which all contracts are reported. One of it is with Turkey signed for large ammount of Gew.88 and Gew.98 bolts. These bolts were serialed with arabic digits as from Turkey asked. It was accepted in Brno by turkish inspector commision. There existed other bolt 98 contracts prior 1930 same as 6000 Maxim barells for MG, and a lot of ammunition.
About Your reported rifle, is possible the ZB made barell was added into Gew88 and repassed in CS by a small rifle maker, as it went for commerzial market. For this should be looked at details.

 

[ernie8]

My information comes from looking at a lot of real rifles . I have M-22 rifles with old German proofs on barrels and rear sights . You read a lot of books by people who may or may not have got the info correct . All the Gew-88 mis information I have disproved was written in books .

 

[AndyB]

Is Your choice what You believe, certainly Smid wrote all info about the Vz22 delivery to Turkey as he have had looked into ZB archives, i dont believe You read czech language, so hard to believe You could obtain origin information from Czechoslovakia and even understand the political situation how it was in period 1919-25 here. I am talking about gunbooks based on archive informations.
Offcoarse there are detailed info how many rifles Vz98 and 98/22 were returned from CS Army depots to ZB for refurbishment and sales. Offcoarse early Vz98/22 has a german proofs as the parts were obtained in Mauser Oberndorf directly. There is even original of Turkey contract from december 1925 in archive writen in arabic and in german translation.
I translated the Franek books for John Wall around 2010 and he used it partly in R.D.Ball Mauser rifles of the World book unfortunally not all of them as the information came too late to the fourth edition.
I am little surprised that a authorities as Goetz who wrote the book about german rifles, with bavarian archive details, same as H. Hintermeier who is a factory historian of Steyr doesnt have correct info, but Your research on some rifles is better as archive reports? On rifles which could be refurbished more time in last 100 years by various countries.