Steyr 1890

Real nice one , I've just got my first also , 1890 Amberg, I like the condition of yours , very nice
 
I said they used parts from other sources , then you said they did not . Then you said they did . Since you are the Czech expert , why did they make non-military spec barrels for the Gew-88's for South America and then non military spec ammo for those barrels ? I do not know why they did that , since some of the rifles in South America had standard size barrels .
 
Firstly i was in opinion we talk about G88 not about Gew98 parts??. I answered here to the opinion that large ammount of G88/05 and G88/14 were delivered from CSR to Turkey :
"The Czechs sent whole rifles to Turkey , not sights . Some sights may have been done by the Germans on the war aid rifles , but some were also done by the Czechs later . The Czechs got many Gew-88 rifles from the old A-H empire , some of the ones they sold to SA . They also got a lot of ex German 05's and parts . I have several 88 bolts with the CZ stamp on them , but you can see the remains of the old German stamp under it ."
Secondly the contract signed about license of Mauser 98, production line mashines and large ammount of unfullended rifles in parts(nearly 40000) directly by Mauser Oberndorf are well known to every czechoslovak gun collector, published in all books Sada, Franek, Smid, Francev. I dont say i am expert, i studied information about ZB and their production in last 30 years.
Thirdly as mentioned in CSR was not interest to buy a obsolete G88 rifles, so they got some from inventar of AH empire, and they used it partly to guarding, for testing helm rifles and for bolt testing.
in 4. the new Gew88 bolts delivered to Turkey are described in archives, have all new arabic serialing, visible here on forum, should be proofed with halfmoon as turkish inspectors controled it in Brno, as here are clearly 69xxx serial number, minimum of 70000 were delivered, in archives are reported one contract over 50000 and other additional deliveries per 10000 was reported later prior 1930.
In 5. the Ecuador contract is well known beside of delivery of hundreds of lMG30 was sent 1935 about 15000 of barells G88, that is already in production reports. What for ammunition was delivered or not there is no differenced in the contract, most real it was normal 8x57JS, anyway the ammunition plant produced too the 8x57J version still to 1948.
 
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I never said they bought Gew-88 rifles , they just got them . As far as the German military was concerned the was no such thing as J or JS ammo . The first ammo was P-88 and the second was S . What do you call JS , the .321 dia 154 sp fb or the later .323 dia 198 ammo ? The later sS 198 ammo was never intended to be fired in Gew-88 German rifles . Most Small bore CZ barreled rifles will not even chamber the sS or S ammo . The CZ made ammo for those barrels was loaded different than any German military ammo . It was loaded with a smaller dia bullet and to a different over all cartridge length . Some [ a few of the really tight bores ] of the CZ barrel rifles will not even chamber P-88 ammo . SO the question still remains , Why did they do that ?
I have Turk Gew-88 rifles with CZ marked over German .321 barrels [ So they did use some NOS German barrels ], with new made CZ .323 barrels and Turk turned down .323 CZ 1893 Mauser barrels , besides the majority having original German .321 barrels . That is 4 different barrels found on Turks . So like I said , the Czechs used left over parts . I also know where some of their machinery came from .
 
About designation of P88 and S rounds is in Europe used only metric system since 1890 , not any shortages in inches existed here, 8x57J was used on old cartridge where the J is instead of I as this would be mistakle changed with roman number 1, 8x57J is in all european listings declared as old P88 cartridge, P88 did use lower powder louding, diameter of round max 8,1mm, the S round used round of 8,22 diameter with higher pressure (this is written in Goetz book).
From 4 or 10 rifles made conclusion of rifles which were more time refurbished in their long service life is for me little strange! Mainly by turkish rifles is this spectacular.
Present a german marked bolt G88 with arabic serials made in Zbrojovka Brno, when You have one? certainly it could be refurbish in 70 years in Turkey, as czechoslovak G88 bolts were corectly serialed on all parts with old arabic digits (on small parts with last 2 digits) and proofed with halfmoon. There exist minimum of 30000 Gew98 bolts delivered in same way and marked too similar way.
 
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Mixing of parts is second name for Turks, here from thread of forum a CS G88 new replacement bolt with missmatch parts, similar occured on barells and other parts of G88/05 by Turkish service in 1920-1970.
G88 bolt mixed 62001.jpeg
 
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You are not understanding . They did NOT send " barrels of proper caliber " to Equador . Gotz is wrong about only unused barrels being used for S ammo . I have over 100 Gew-88 rifles and a friend has another 80 [ plus I have inspected about another 200 ] . I have many 1889 rifles with original barrels on them that are S stamped on the receiver . All of what you say about the J and S has been proven wrong , it is old bad info . Just look at real ammo and barrels . Plus S and sS ammo is different and one can be fired in Gew-88 rifles and the other should not be , yet you call BOTH JS . I think we all know Europe used the metric system , but here in the US we do not . So I print sizes in US as 99% of the people wanting this info use that . And they will convert back and forth easily if you need to . No matter what system you use the P-88 , S and sS ammo ALL have different size bullets , bullet weights and velocities . Those are the mistakes you make when you only read about things but do not study the real things . Gotz does not understand what the S stamp REALLY means , just what he interpreted the meaning by reading .
 
I should laugh, Goetz spent a years in bavarian archive, and You known all from 100 refurbished rifles, haha. In 2020 configuration You known how the guns were choosen for refurbishment in 1906/7 period??.
I should present here the info about the book in original language as my english is not well. With this i end my contribution here.
H.D.Goetz: Die deutschen Militaergewehre und Maschinenpistolen 1871-1945, ISBN 3-87943-350-X
pg.99 - 7 juli 1896" bei neuangefertigten Laufen statt 0,1mm bisherigen Zugtiefe sind 0,15mm anzuwenden, Laufe und Hulse sollte mit Z bezeichnet werden"
pg100 - Gewehr 88S nach einfuehrung der S munition nach 3.4.1903 teile des Bestandes von Gewehren und Karabiner wurden fuer die Spitz Geschoss eingerichtet, die neuen laufen mussten zuege mit 0,15mm haben also Z gestempelt, erweitertes Patronenlager und neue entfernungsmarken am visier. Das Kriegsministerium ordnete an, das nur Gewehre mir neuen ungebrauchten Laufen fuer den S munition eingerichtet werden sollten. Die kennzeichnung an geaenderten waffen ist mit 3mm schrifthoehe S zu markieren.
pg.101 - Transformation der Gewehre 88/05 fuer ladestreifen, diese wurden ab 1906/7 abgeandert, abaenderung kostete 8Mark pro gewehr, in waffenfabriken wurde 200000 fuer S patrone und Ladestreifen abgeandert, sie dienten zu reserve bis genug Gew98 hergestellt worden. Ab 1907 wurden alte G88 am private personen verkauft (offiziere zahlten 2Mark fuer Gewehr)"
 
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So the real rifles do not exist ? I pick and choice my rifles for features . I have many rifles that have ALL the original parts still on them just as they were made in 1889 , 90 and so on . The Germans used THREE different barrels on the Gew-88 . The first was a .314 - . 3208 , They then Deepened the grooves [ early 1890 ] by making the BORE smaller at .311 which does give you the extra .003 Z groove depth [ you can convert to metric ] . Last [ 1896 1/2 ] they went to the Next Z at .311 - .323 and marked the rifles with the Z . That was the new spec after 1896 1/2 and most rifles that needed a rebarrel [ or made ] after THAT date got the .323 barrel . YET most 88/05's still have their original .3208 barrel on them . That is a fact . Also you never answered about all the incorrect ammo and small SA CZ barrel stuff you posted .
 
ALL the original parts still on them just as they were made in 1889 , 90 and so on . They then Deepened the grooves [ early 1890 ] by making the BORE smaller at .311 which does give you the extra .003 Z groove depth [ you can convert to metric ]
On this is visible how You are wrong, as not reading real archive information, only looking on real rifles, 1890 dated rifles with deepened twist in barell are not so made in 1890, but reworked post 1895, and You couldnt see the difference between what was done by original condition rifle and what post refurbishments.
Goetz wrote on pg97 -Because of quickly removing of twist in barells after 3000 rounds already and some real injuries of soldiers done in years 1891/2, by blowing many barells, started 1894 made test in Spandau with various deep of grooves which ended with the 0.15mm, so all rifles G88 made in 1889-92 should be made only with old 0,1mm grooves in barells configuration , when they have the deeper grooves it means the rifles were rebarelled or retwisted. There is exact points how it was realised because of real directives in original period documents exist.
I would recommend You translate for Your self the german text that i added here. After 100 years is impossible on real rifles wout real period archive information to see how were these rifles refurbished and when it was done.
 
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All of my real rifles prove you wrong . You have no idea what you are talking about and there is no reason to continue . There are many other people how have barrels that are just as I say . Gotz did not understand what he read and had no rifles to look at .
 
Talking, talking wout any knowledge of real historical document, You ever dont known when it was accepted into service G88, Goetz had presented original of envelope from GPK of Spandau to KM Munchen.
I asked twice present the mentioned G.88 ZB bolts in matching arabic digits with german imperial proofs, present the equador G88 with czechoslovak replacement barells with evidence of CS origin of the G88. Otherway is this losted time.
 
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To both mr AndyB and mr ernie8, after reading your months old argument I have a some questions. As you both seem somewhat authorities on the commissioned rifle, I have made this account on this day to ask my questions. To mr ernie8, Have you ever in you time seen a gew 88 seeming converted to a 98 with fn proofs ? (jacket removed, lange vizer sights,possibly new barrel) One is listed on gun broker currently.
To mr AndyB what would specificaly detonated a commision rifle that was owend by the dual monarchy? I have seen one that claimed that heritage and had been parkerized . Was That a Austro-hugarian practice or no?
Also do either of you have any good English or Deutsche books to refer me to on the commission rifle?
Thank you both, for any information you can give.
 
I am not expert on G88 area, i am a bayonet collector, but read some books and saw some rifles in friends collection here in middle Europe, to Austro Ugrian monarchy, the majority were G88 in originaly unconverted condition, the parkerising was not certainly a surface used by AU, possible they have some replacement in sling configuration and some could have new austrian units stamped on buttplate. Anyway in war condition could be made some local refurbishments.
 
boxarox said:
To both mr AndyB and mr ernie8, after reading your months old argument I have a some questions. As you both seem somewhat authorities on the commissioned rifle, I have made this account on this day to ask my questions. To mr ernie8, Have you ever in you time seen a gew 88 seeming converted to a 98 with fn proofs ? (jacket removed, lange vizer sights,possibly new barrel) One is listed on gun broker currently.
To mr AndyB what would specificaly detonated a commision rifle that was owend by the dual monarchy? I have seen one that claimed that heritage and had been parkerized . Was That a Austro-hugarian practice or no?
Also do either of you have any good English or Deutsche books to refer me to on the commission rifle?
Thank you both, for any information you can give.
Click to expand...

I was curious enough to go looking on GB and man, what an odd duck:

BqC5tcp.jpg


As for good references on the 88, Dieter Storz, German Military Rifles Vol. II: 88 and 91 firearms is the easy recommendation. He's German so that's the original language, but it's also widely available in English. Here's the Amazon.de link for reference if you prefer German: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Dr-Dieter-Storz/dp/3902526556
 
They made in FN and belgian firms various odds combination postwar on older obsolete rifles,one of typical are the M88/24 Mannlichers refurbishment with Mosin 91 barells.
 
Thank you for the help. Yes that is a very weird rifle, and I have one of its mates. Mine has a barrel jacket still and is fitted in gew 98 stock, but otherwise oddly similar. To mr Cyranono thank you for the book recommendations. To mr Andy, thank you for your information on austrian use of the rifle.
 
I own one of the above rifles . Made post WWI in Belgium . They used what parts they had from the German rifles left there after the war . Mine has a Small ring German 98 barrel on it and the Gew-98 rear sight .
 
A lot of the A-H rifles went to South America after WWI . They did redo the sling mounts on some but seemed to give up after a while .
 
While I cannot contribute to this subject in any meaningful way, I found the discussion quite interesting and merits to both Andy's and Ernie's posts, not sure which is "more" right but I suspect this is the best discussion (debate) I have read on the subject.

Excellent read!
 
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