Steyr M.12 Zollwache - replaced slide

[AndyB]

Firstly the pistol was made in Steyr in 1919 also postwar also could be not a austrian army contract, the piece was prepared for other countries contract as not any proofs visible on trigger, it should be part of Czechoslovakia pistol contract but is out of range as they buyed only 5000 of this modell and all were marked with CRS stamp, which means remained in Austria hidden in depot, the piece was commerzially proofed in 1932 mostly when it went to LandesGendarmerie, as normaly police pistols were obtained per commercial proofs way, in that period it was used by police or Gendarmerie and property marked on sling strap for LKNo. Possible not by normal Streifendienst as mentioned earlier. After 1938 german occupation it brings refurbishment to 9mm Para, austrian police didnt use this caliber, as even MPi 34 for police was in 9mm Steyr round. It was marked with 3R police Eagle/L proof. So used of Ordnungspolizei or branch of police of Grossdeutschland that followed the austrian Gendarmerie.
Then it rise question when it could found way to czechoslovak police as in article is mentioned that he got the piece to museum from HS-VB which was a security and police branch, the piece could be captured in Sudetenland also parts of Czechoslovakia near austrian border in period of 1945, the piece could be reused by agents of CIC service which realised escape of many people of CSR when the communist rised power in CSR 1948 and later and thirdly it could be captured by criminal as many WW2 guns were avialable in the area of CSR. The Steyr pistols were not avialable in large numbers in teritorry of Czechoslovakia, as only WW1 remains and majority of 5000 pistols buyed by army were probably captured by germans and reworked in 1939/40, the CS police used as main weapon Vz.27 and Vz.50 also 7,65 Br caliber pistols. When used postwar german captured pistols by extra army organised special police units so in small bunch P38 certainly not obsolete Steyr M12.

 

[Absolut]

After having corresponded with both Joschi Schuy as well as Rupert Reisinger they both consider the LGK markings on the Steyr M.1912 pistols to be post WWII applied markings. Schuy made they interesting mention that if the markings would had been applied in the inter war period, then there would need to be LGK marked Steyr M.34 break barrel pistols too, of which he had never encountered one. Also, even if one was to assume that this pistol would had been left over in Czech Republic pre 1945, then there would had been way more of them (and therefore much more common in Czech Republic, plus in various museums), and it would not make sense for the pistol to be kept until 1960 to only by then be given to VHU. Both considered it much more likely that for whatever reason this single pistol found its way over the border, especially since Niederösterreich shares a border with Czech Republic.

Edit, personal addendum: VHU initially describes the rework from 9mm Steyr to 9x19mm, but at the very end states the pistol is 9mm Steyr caliber. Just pointing out that they maybe didn't care this much about everything in the description and who knows if the 1960 date may also be a typo ...

 

[AndyB]

It would be nice to see any reference that SMG MPi34 in Steyr cartridge was used post 1945 by LKNo?. As these pieces are reported with original M95 bayonets
-same as there are reported pieces brought back by US Gis with various LGK marking that could be not existed in period of post 1945 and given to postwar police
-in reality the piece marked of LKNo would be unreal because Niederoesterreich was post 1945 in soviet zone.
-even the explanation of CS possibility using is very strange, unfortunally here with lack of knowledge about CS area, 1960 is normal period when similar obsolete items were sold out or gifted to museums (i personally gived equipment pieces to slovak museum in 90ies.)
-It would be interesting how would Schuyi explain the commerzial proof 32 on right trigger, and who used the pistol of 9mm Steyr since 1919 prior 1938? 1932 is period when the hidden pistols were brought back in to service by rearming, as not stamped with HVerwaltung for army but comerzially proofed for police

 

[AndyB]

Already asked in upper discussion: "How do You explain a 9700 pcs of M12 Steyr pistole by Executive then in march 1938? When no one here accept using of M12 by Police/Gendarmery interwar?"
Still not got any answer who used the 9700 Steyr pistols in 1938 that was in inventory of police and gendarmery of early 1938 listed in E. Steinboeck buch. Same as they reported 2600 pcs of MPi34 in 9mm Steyr cartridge in same branch as army had Mpi34 in 9mm Mauser cartridge?

 

[Absolut]

Yes, they used the MP34 even post WWII in Police. In the book of Schuy you can even find one which was reworked to CO2 powered and LGK (and K for Kärnten I think - don't have the whole book in my head) stamped.

I cannot relate to "reported pieces brought back by US GIs with various LGK marking" if I'm not given a reference to any particular item. Unless there are bringback papers those have to be looked at carefully, since after decades and people buying stuff they back then saw or once owned makes it hard to verify. Soviet occupation zone btw ended in 1955.

The existance of these is very clear. I never doubted they didn't have the pistol pre 1938. I simply said that those don't need to be LGK marked. It is mine, Schuy and Reisingers believe that they were marked LGK post WWII, and in the inter war period didn't have these markings yet. The Police simply kept the guns they already had from 1938 to 1945 - and when finally doing an inventory post WWII these were marked on the lanyard ring. Originally they were marked to match the serial number - but for being rebuild several times the few that still have the matching numbers on the lanyard ring are possibly a handful.

Regarding the NPv32 proof stamp on the pistol: I cannot recall EVER having seen a Steyr M.1912 pistol with this proof date. The location is odd too, for the post WWII Steyr M.1912 pistols usually having been on top of the slide. If I was to consider it legit, then this would IMHO even speak against an Austrian pre 1938 marking, because if the Police was to acquire the pistol in the inter war period, then it would not have needed to have this commercial proof, and therefore would not had been done.

The Steyr M.1912 though was listed in the Steyr Solothurn catalogue for sale (with a most possible one of a kind inscription for the catalogue). Even those with the Steyr Logo that are said to be inter war production from approximately this period and tend to have 1919 dating slides do not carry commercial firing proof from this period. Also note this is one of the so far three known pistols to have the "matching number" to the pistol serial on the lanyard ring - to my knowledge all of them are LGK NÖ marked pistols. I'm having troubles to read the number on the lanyard ring of the pistol at VHU website - can anyone make out whether this "matches" the slide and frame serial?

 

[AndyB]

I personally dont have similar opinion, Mpi 34 and M1895 Stutzen and bayonets were marked but Steyr M12 pistols not in interwar period with LGK stamps, that would be strange certainly. They would waiting anywhere in depots in Austria in year 1945 for adding of new police serialing post 1945 even here in a soviet zone?
Majority of the Steyr pistols are already on US market, You should look at Axis forum for real samples. There are even samples with confirmed US bringbacks.
Offcoarse the czechoslovak delivered Steyr M12 were marked Wn 19/20 wout eagle proof also Wien arsenal proofed on same place as is here a commercial nitro proof. The piece reported with commerzial marking was presented here in forum, is late y range, has commerzial nitro proof on slide, is marked LGK St., was a conversion to 9mm Para, right trigger Wn no eagle 20, over HV eagle 30.
The presented piece of prague museum is fully matching. 9483z. LGK No- unknown number but in 6xx range
And offcoarse there should be inventory listing of what for items and how many were used by "LGK No" post 1945, what serials and that would be for me little strange as soviets brings official note even to raising of B-Gendarmerie in 1952 because they were against the rearmament of austrians, it would be nice to see where would be stored similar guns in soviet zone prior 1955 when marked Niederoesterreich? I would ask in HGM museum as there was exhibition of 1945-55 equipment.

 

[Absolut]

Alright, you beat me to bother vice person in charge of weapons collection at Austrian Army Museum (HGM) in his free time, giving him a call and additionally ask for his opinion. He replied that whereas theoretically a LGK marking could be possible from 1918 on, he never saw any kind of proof, like documents, for this and also considers it highly unlikely. He pointed out additionally that the Steyr M.34 break barrel pistols from the inter war period were not LGK stamped in any way, which should otherwise be the case too. And finally he said that the date of 1960 in Czech Republic fits to a post 1945 applied stamp and he considers it to be likely that during border service maybe one "got lost" (since according to him up to the 1950s the exact border line wasn't fully clear, and the Czech might have emptied someone crossing during nighttime).

There is zero persons among Austrian collectors who believe LGK stamps to be applied in the 1918 to 1945 time frame. Anyone upon being asked immediately points post 1945. Of course you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.

 

[AndyB]

Offcoarse thats the point, i believe for what i have confirmation and source of information.
When rifles M95 and Mps34 were marked prewar so it were marked even pistols M12 (police had even armored vehicles, heavy MGs and other army weapons since 1920), i little known what was done under soviet occupation as they liberated us 2 times.
There exist samples which are Steyr 1919 marked in 7xxx y range, with no army proof, no conversion to 9mm Para but in original cartridge 9mm Steyr and not any strap markings, which confirms that not all pieces of 1919 production went to Gendarmery. The one reported piece is too in USA
Majority of 9mm Para conversion were police marked as the pieces were in police inventory and by OrPo they changed to new 9mm Para which was standard ammo for german police, even Eagle /L for police inventory proof.
There exist a LGK No marked 901, so You also believe there was postwar 900 pistols of Steyr M12 located in soviet zone of Niederoesterreich?
Same as in that period would be done some other refurbishments and new stamping typical for postwar which were not confirmed to this day, reproof and stamps typical for post 1950.
And at end there is a LGK St. piece confirmed with over stamped 1.republic austrian eagle on strap over the serial number of LGK stamp, too with HV 30 proof.
About the Czech republic (raised 1993), they didnt existed in 1960 only Czechoslovakia existed. About how it could be add to police exist more explanation, one of it is border overgoing.

 

[Absolut]

Andy, I'm not going to discuss this any further with you because you are firmly entitled to your believe - of which ZERO persons in Austria share that very same thought. I simply see no more sense in going any deeper since you anyway do not want to hear what I am telling you.

Also you keep repeating the same mistake that I had pointed out to you previously. THE NUMBER ON THE LANYARD RING IS NOT AN INVENTORY NUMBER! The number on this lanyard ring was stamped matching numbers to the pistol. However, there are only a few known which still have the matching number on the lanyard ring, such as the attached shown LGK NÖ stamped pistol.

.. and now out of this thread, not going to post any more in here.

 

[AndyB]

haha, this is parts pistol not a normal range serialed pistol of 1919. With the logo of Steyr refurbishment in 30ies behind the 1442. No any proofs, which means its party left over piece. The LGK strap numbers are inventory numbers similar as find on rifles and SMG Mpi34, they never had identical serial number with LGK numbers. So the 1442 is in reality a exception of rule. For this You have here many samples even the Prague Museum piece and other samples in internet.
4483y marked 1919 pistol, with LGK No. inventory nr.980.

Steyr M12 1919 Adler L und 08 gestempelt - Pistolver

Steyr M12 1919 Adler L Polizeistempel Steyr M12 in sehr schönem Allgemeinzustand komplett nummerngleich mit spiegelblankem Lauf. Interessant ist, dass die Steyr Werke 1919, also nach dem ersten Weltkrieg, noch diese Pistole gefertigt haben. Sie sind im Nummernbereich x y und z zu finden. Im...

pistolver.de

 

[HerrWolfsberg]

haha, this is parts pistol not a normal range serialed pistol of 1919. With the logo of Steyr refurbishment in 30ies behind the 1442. No any proofs, which means its party left over piece. The LGK strap numbers are inventory numbers similar as find on rifles and SMG Mpi34, they never had identical serial number with LGK numbers. So the 1442 is in reality a exception of rule. For this You have here many samples even the Prague Museum piece and other samples in internet.
4483y marked 1919 pistol, with LGK No. inventory nr.980.

Steyr M12 1919 Adler L und 08 gestempelt - Pistolver

Steyr M12 1919 Adler L Polizeistempel Steyr M12 in sehr schönem Allgemeinzustand komplett nummerngleich mit spiegelblankem Lauf. Interessant ist, dass die Steyr Werke 1919, also nach dem ersten Weltkrieg, noch diese Pistole gefertigt haben. Sie sind im Nummernbereich x y und z zu finden. Im...

pistolver.de

The Steyr stamp behind the serial number does not denote a Steyr refurbishment. This is one of the pistols made for Austrian Gendarmerie in 1935. They were the last M.12 pistols made as far as I know.

Andy, I'm not going to discuss this any further with you because you are firmly entitled to your believe - of which ZERO persons in Austria share that very same thought. I simply see no more sense in going any deeper since you anyway do not want to hear what I am telling you.

Also you keep repeating the same mistake that I had pointed out to you previously. THE NUMBER ON THE LANYARD RING IS NOT AN INVENTORY NUMBER! The number on this lanyard ring was stamped matching numbers to the pistol. However, there are only a few known which still have the matching number on the lanyard ring, such as the attached shown LGK NÖ stamped pistol.

.. and now out of this thread, not going to post any more in here.

I am sorry, I seem to have a talent to innocently ask and start a sh*tstorm like this.

Anyway, I find the idea of the number on the lanyard ring simply being a number matching the pistol number a bit weird. What would be the reason for that? On all the other firearms, it was a common practice to stamp a service number somewhere - on the buttplate or on the pistol grip mostly. The Bundesheer did this, the Sicherheitswache did, why should the Gendarmerie differ? Especially since the numbers on other Gendarmerie-issued guns (the MP34 SMGs, for example, or the M.95 rifles) do not match the serial number of the gun itself. Plus, what would be the reason for the lanyard rings being mismatched later on, but not the rest of the parts on the pistol?

Regarding the absence of the Gendarmerie property stamps on the Steyr 1909 pistols, isn't it possible that they simply were not property marked for some reason? The Sicherheitswache also wasn't marking all the firearms in their inventory, as far as I remember.

 

[AndyB]

Personally i dont have problem to accept when You have confirmed that the concentric rings behind the 1442 serial number is Gendarmery contract designation, even confirmed with LGK No on sling strap. Anyway it would be interesting to see the fireproofs. Concentric rings were used by Steyr as trademark of early 30ies on edged weapons.
Anyway majority of Gendarmery marked pistols are in Steyr 1919 range and in series y and z, possible that there was a new range started wout any suffix which could point to 1442?.
In 15 minute research of internet You could see the marking how it was realised:
majority of pistols in USA offcoarse, all pistols are matching slide/frame
1.Steyr 1918, 1638 y, Wn imperial eagle 18, 9mm Steyr
2.Steyr 1918, 1813 y, Wn 18, 9mm Steyr, CRS on right side, Czechoslovak contract, exist samples marked 1919 and Wn no eagle 19/20 proofed, no austrian marking, CR, 5000 pistols delivered, some of them in x range
3.Steyr 1919 , 4483 y, HV 30 over Wn-19, 08 conversion, LGK No. inv.nr.980
4.Steyr 1919, 7602 y, no proofs, no conversion to 9Para, no strap markings
5.Steyr 1919 , 9396 y, 08 conversion, HV 30, LGK No, inv.nr.950
6.Steyr 1919, 9817 y, 08 conversion, HV 30, LGK St. inventory nr.299
7.Steyr 1919, 1495 z, 08 conversion, HV30, LGK O.O. inv nr.54
8.Steyr 1919, 2363 z, 08 conversion, HV30, LGK St. inv.nr. 259
9.Steyr 1919, 2441 z, 08 conversion, HV30, LGK St inv nr.103
10.Steyr 1919, 9483 z, 08 conversion HV30, LGK No, inv.nr.5?7, Prague museum
And offcoarse all these pistols couldnt have matching inventory number of Gendarmery because produced in Steyr string which continued from letter x, into letter y and ended with letter z.

 

[HerrWolfsberg]

Personally i dont have problem to accept when You have confirmed that the concentric rings behind the 1442 serial number is Gendarmery contract designation, even confirmed with LGK No on sling strap. Anyway it would be interesting to see the fireproofs. Concentric rings were used by Steyr trademark of early 30ies on edged weapons.
Anyway majority of Gendarmery marked pistols are in Steyr 1919 rangeand in series y and z, possible that there was a new range started wout any suffix.
In 15 minute research of internet You could see the marking how it was realised:
majority of pistols in USA offcoarse, all pistols are matching slide/frame
1.Steyr 1918, 1638 y, Wn imperial eagle 18, 9mm Steyr
2.Steyr 1918, 1813 y, Wn 18, 9mm Steyr, CRS on right side, Czechoslovak contract, exist samples marked 1919 and Wn no eagle 19/20 proofed, no austrian marking, CR, 5000 pistols delivered, some of them in x range
3.Steyr 1919 , 4483 y, HV 30 over Wn-19, 08 conversion, LGK No. inv.nr.980
4.Steyr 1919, 7602 y, no proofs, no conversion to 9Para, no strap markings
5.Steyr 1919 , 9396 y, 08 conversion, HV 30, LGK No, inv.nr.950
6.Steyr 1919, 9817 y, 08 conversion, HV 30, LGK St. inventory nr.299
7.Steyr 1919, 1495 z, 08 conversion, HV30, LGK O.O. inv nr.54
8.Steyr 1919, 2363 z, 08 conversion, HV30, LGK St. inv.nr. 259
9.Steyr 1919, 2441 z, 08 conversion, HV30, LGK St inv nr.103
10.Steyr 1919, 9483 z, 08 conversion HV30, LGK No, inv.nr.5?7, Prague museum
And offcoarse all these pistols couldnt have matching inventory number of Gendarmery because produced in Steyr string which continued from letter x, into letter y and ended with letter z.

The list is interesting. There are Czechoslovak contract pistols in the y-suffix range mixed with pistols from the Volkswehr and later Bundesheer contracts from 1919/1920. Some Czechoslovak contract pistols can be found with Bundesheer stamping because they were sold off to Austria in the mid 1930's. But the string of Gendarmerie-marked pistols all stamped with HV30 is too early for that. And it looks like it's not a coincidence.

 

[AndyB]

Concentric ring with Steyr inside was firstly registered in 1919 but was commerzially used in 30ies (see Trademark registration site), so that is the question when was added the 1442 and concentric rings/target Steyr trademark to this? So this only confirms the Steyr logo and 1935 period even not refurbishment. But was made from left over parts as Steyr 1919 there. No visible proof prior 1938 conversion to 08.

Interwar Steyr M.1912 German 08 reworked

The attached shown Steyr M.1912 pistol has at least four interesting details to point out: 1. The parts were originally manufactured in 1919, so post WWI. Many of these ended up in Czech hands - this one didn't. It wasn't finished and therefore also not proofed in 1919. 2. This particular pistol...

www.k98kforum.com

To serial number is clear they continued in normal war time serialing since 1918 to 1919 x-z range, question for me remains Bundesheer contract in 1919/20 strange as in that period were already St.Germains ally condition, and in Austria was enough wartime Steyr M12 pistols for 30000 Bundesheer, so its more real the pieces were prepared for police /gendarmery /ZW/SW (for this speaks that some have commerzial Vienna fireproof), and refurbished/proofed first time in 1930/31 by army workshop probably even for Executive, for this should be certainly archive materials, same as for the number of M12 pistols buyed back from Czechoslovakia in 30ies. But this should have the Czechoslovak property stamp and inventory stamping of divisional depots.
About LGK serials i have more samples reported in 40years of collection as i am bayonet collector of M95 so in reality never saw a range over 1000 on M95, question remains the string was separate for MPi34 and M12 pistols or one inventory string?, the range of all items would to sample corespond when same as structure of 9 Bundeslaender, also by each unit of LGK would be about 1000-1500 weapons in maximum, so i assume this was Alarmbereitschaften of LGK equiped with army weapons. So they couldnt ever reached to 9843 number as is to sample in Prague museum, and inventory stamping of LGK was separate from serial number done in factory. Only exception could be the exact contract for the LGK with serial numbers wout suffix which are from left over parts as 1919 were stopped production of M1912 pistols, personally i never saw a slide with Steyr 1920.
As above already clear this is already confirmed left over parts 1935 production.