Stock I. D.

D

deadeye18

Well-known member
Hello all, I saw our fellow member vonrall posted help for a stock I. D. and I remembered this rifle stock that I got thrown in as part of a deal for a pile of spare parts years ago.Can anyone tell me the meaning of the stamps on the but plate please?it looks like 17 H.3.L
 

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Here's a few more
 

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I would think this is Hussar, cavalry, though the "L" throws some doubt on this. I looked at Jeff Noll's book, and will check Görtz-Bryans later, but going though my database, I do not have a matching 17th Hussar recorded to maker-date this rifle, though it is "probably" Danzig and probably 1909. Most Cavalry known are Danzig's and 1909. Some exceptions of course, Bavarian would be Amberg of course, some Spandau and Erfurt are Cav also, but not Hussars usually (one exception for Spandau, 1909 Spandau 427 a 3.H.4.97.)

Anyway, most Cav are Danzig's and most 1909. Craig Brown has another rifle with a similar unit marking, closest I could find, no pictures unfortunately, only a report and Craig didn't define the unit marking for us. Our forum has suffered considerably since Craig passed, to the same degree Gunboards-Mauser has suffered since John Wall's loss.. his rifle was 1911 Danzig 8654 17.H.L.4, which might be medical. Not sure, unit markings are not a strong suit.. attached find the only other Hussar/17, I use to own this stock set, traded it for a Simson as part of a larger deal, but i can't find the pictures i took, which are better than the guy I bought it from (these are those)

Also, maker-dating pre-war is difficult by stock acceptance, pre-war the inspectors are far less static, they can vary widely within years, even blocks, and I do not have enough examples to create a reliable trends on these early makers. G98 are worse, at least more 98a exist with original stocks, they survived in larger numbers, - pre-war G98 are much tougher to find with original stocks, unaltered and well documented. It would be difficult to nail down maker-date on this stock set alone.
 

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Loewe a huge thankyou for taking the time to look this up for me it's very much appreciated.I know virtually zero about these.

Vincent
Hello I've had a look at it through my largest magnifier and yes there is a point that's very hard to see and another at the end it all reads 17.H.3.L .
.
 
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I saw nothing in Görtz/Bryans to suggest a meaning to the last "L", but they do say that the first letter is typically the character that identifies the type of unit, and as "H" has a limited pool of meanings, HQ, Battery, Hussar, the options are limited and the "L" is probably some qualifying designation, but hell if I know... it isn't typical anyway. Others, our German friends, probably can help, Jeff Noll drops by on occasion, so maybe in time some with an answer will stroll by...
 
Loewe said:
......and the "L" is probably some qualifying designation, but hell if I know... it isn't typical anyway.
Click to expand...

If we take "17. H." for granted being the 17. Husaren Regiment (known as: Black Brunswickers, Brunswick Hussars, Death's Head Hussars) only L = Landwehr makes a little sense.
Other meanings for "L." are: Lazarett (hospital), Luftschiffer (airship), Lehr (training), Leib (guards)

My first idea was: 17. Husaren Regiment, 3. Landwehr Eskadron

But, the 17. Hussars did not have any Landwehr squadrons. Maybe later in the war, but not in 1914.

Sorry, no better idea on my side of the pond.

Maybe others can find out more.

Thanks
 
Amberg said:
My first idea was: 17. Husaren Regiment, 3. Landwehr Eskadron

But, the 17. Hussars did not have any Landwehr squadrons. Maybe later in the war, but not in 1914.

Sorry, no better idea on my side of the pond.

Maybe others can find out more.

Thanks
Click to expand...

There is nothing i can add to Ambergs post.

The only thing i could find was a kind of similar unit marking in Wacker/Görtz. Page 54 he shows a G98 with the marking 1.J.2.L. and identifies that as
1. Jäger-Bataillon 2. Landwehr-Kompanie. Due to a lack of alternatives i think 3. Landwehr-Eskadron is our best guess.

With kind regards

Vincent
 
Stock I.D.

These type regimental markings really require documentation on the specific regiment. This regiment was probably one which was converted from a cavalry unit to basically an infantry regiment late in the war as many cavalry regiments were. This stock was from a 1916 manufactured rifle or earlier and when it was marked is anyone's guess. On page 169 of my book I document that the 17th did have a single Landwehr-Eskadron (Nr.2) which was part of the 5th Ersatz-Division. The 17th Hussars is the only Hussar Regiment listed with a Landwehr-Eskadron. This could be a shortcoming of the source material I used for this chapter but assuming my source material was complete this marking 17 H 3 L would translate to Hussar-Regiment 17, Landwehr-Eskadorn (2), Waffe Nr. 3. Again the "(2)" is missing from the marking because there was no other Landwehr-Eskadronen in this regiment. Also, this marking deviates from placing the weapon number last. One really needs to have a Regimental History book of the 17th Hussars to be sure.
 
I agree, Jeff Noll is the best on this subject, at least among the English speaking collectors.
 
Stock I.D.

deadeye18 and Loewe - Thank you for your complements. Sadly I am finding that Regimental Marking translations is a perishable commodity. Too much water passing under my bridge! Jeff
 
Jeff,
great information! Thanks.
Do you remember where you got that data from?
I did not find any information about the 17. Husaren, Landwehr Eskadron in our archives. Searched through the (few surviving) files from the 17. Husaren and the 5. Ersatz Division with no success. :-(
Thanks
Wolfgang
 
Stock I.D.

Wolfgang, Found it!! The reference came from:
The German Forces in the Field November 1918, reprinted 1995, The Imperial War Museum, London, U.K., and The Battery Press Inc., Nashville, Tennessee, USA and as THE GERMAN FORCES IN THE FIELD 7TH REVISION, 11TH NOVEMBER 1918, 1918, First Printing for Official use only ISSUED BY THE GENERAL STAFF
Page 200.
Jeff
 
Thanks.
Since I do not have this book, I asked some friends from a German WWI forum for help and got scans from that book.

Some observations and thoughts:
According to the paragraph about the X. Army Corps, the Corps had three Landwehr squadrons attached. Two of them came from the 17. Hussars.
(According to Kraus, Vol.II page 675., all three came from the 17. Hussars.)
1st Landwehr squadron, X. A.C. (of the 17. Hussars) > Naval Corps
2nd Landwehr squadron, X. A.C. (of the 17. Hussars) > 5th Ersatz Division
3rd Landwehr squadron, X.A.C. (of the 17. Hussars???) > 38th Landwehr Division

In the paragraph about the Naval Corps one of their cavalry units is listed as 1st Landwehr squadron of X. A.C. (nothing about 17. Hussars)

I think the confusion has to do with the restructuring of the German Army in 1914.
The Landwehr cavalry squadrons were no longer part of their Regiment but were attached to an Army Corps/Division. Therefor their official designation/name changed.

e.g.: 17th Hussars Regiment, 1st Landwehr squadron, changed into 1st Landwehr squadron of the X. Army Corps.

According to German regulations, (D.V.E. Nr. 185 dated 1909) all weapons had to be unit marked, even if they were stored away for Reserve or Landwehr units.
Most, if not all cavalry units got their new Karabiner 98 long before the war.
Maybe the rifles were pre-stamped for each squadron when the rifles were stored away in a depot/stock room, leaving out the weapon#. (Numbering the weapons had to follow certain rules. To me it seems impossible to pre-stamp the weapon# correctly.)
With the outbreak of WWI the unit markings were abolished and the name of the unit had changed from 17. Hussars, Landwehr squadron to Landwehr squadron of the X.A.C.. No more need to add the rifle#.

Thanks
Wolfgang
 
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Hello guys,

so now it is basically the question if this unit marking was stamped between 1909-1914 or during the war?


With kind regards

Vincent
 
I'd say it only can be a pre war stamp, because all Landwehr squadrons of the X. A.C. were formed when mobilization was ordered. August 2nd 1914
With mobilization, unit markings were regarded as "not necessary anymore".

Thanks
 
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