Thoughts on arr4 kits and oiler types

[mrfarb]

I've been watching kits off and on for a while myself, and have come to notice some peculiarities myself about arr kits. It's very difficult to know exactly what parts belong in late kits but I've noticed a trend with the stamped oilers. These stamped sheetmetal oilers are mostly in the arr4 kits with the WaA392 inspection. The arr4 kits with WaA57 inspection mostly have the spoons from Kyffhäuserhütte and the simplified steel type oilers, and the arr4 kits with WaA20 are not seen as often by me so I can't say for sure. What I'm getting at, I think the waffenamt WaA57 were all actually put together by Kyffhäuserhütte and not as some say with parts provided to Brauchschweigische Blechwarenfabrik by Kyffhäuserhütte. Also, i'd bet money that the WaA20 kits should have G Appel type parts in them.

I'm really starting to believe the scenario that arr4, rco44, and rco45 cans were supplied to 2 other makers other than Brauchschweigische Blechwarenfabrik for assembly by them, and that only Brauchschweigische Blechwarenfabrik used the sheetmetal type oilers. In this case, only those actually assembled by Brauchschweigische Blechwarenfabrik might have the sheetmetal oiler, any kits assembled by the others might never have them.

I readily admit that it's nearly impossible to know who assembled kits with no acceptance on them. I have never "studied" kits to the degree to write a book, this is from casual observations.

 

[Slash]

Some interesting thoughts and observations here. From the data I have assembled the sheet metal oilers are most frequently encountered in 1944 dated kits (arr4, rco4, and rco44). They also show up in a few of the Brauchschweigische Blechwarenfabrik kits in 1943 and with some frequency in 1945. The 1945 kits can also be found with late rough finish phenolic oilers and any one of the three or four variations of simplified steel oil bottles. These oilers can also be found in the earlier (1943 - '44) kits. Would need to take a deeper look at the data to see how it aligns with mrfarb's comments.

I have always liked the sheet metal oilers due to their crudeness and appearance. It seems apparent that they were either made by Brauchschweigische Blechwarenfabrik or by a subcontractor for that firm. Of some additional interest are the examples with the welded seam around the body. In researching the rg34 over many years have found that the welded oilers actually outnumber the smooth sided "no weld" body pieces. With more that 300 examples documented in a spreadsheet the welded oilers outnumber the seamless tube examples by almost three to one. It has been suggested that the welded examples were fabricated from scrap tubing and that may be the case. On the other hand, it seems strange to me that there would be more of the salvage welded pieces than the solid tubing if they were being made from left over scrap material. Just another area needing additional research .....

 

[Amberg]

Some of the Kyffhäuserhütte company's files survived WWII. They are now in privat hand. I contacted the owner several times and told him that I'm interested in the production of the RG34 during the war. Non of my inquiries was answered. ;-(
Some years ago they had an exhibition about the Kyffhäuserhütte in the city hall of Artern.
http://www.artern-stadt.info/15.html
Very much at the bottom of the site you can see one of their first post war products. A lighter made from a phenolic oiler.

 

[mrfarb]

I moved this to it's own thread to keep it separate from the other discussions. I'm attaching a photo of the most common pattern of oiler/spoon I see in an arr4 kit with the WaA57 inspection (probably late ones). Oilers are the simplified type and spoons are most easily identifiable as "Ky type" based on comparison to Ky1940 marked spoons (and later one made by them). Sometimes I see WaA57 kits with only the oiler and the spoon is missing (typical). I'm attaching a photo comparison of the Ky marked spoon to this type.

 

[mrfarb]

Here's another posted online to another forum, see the comparison. Granted I didn't save every image from a WaA57 marked kit, I'm guessing there are both this type of oiler and the bakelite types for sure.

 

[pwcosol]

Very helpful thread. Took a look at the three "arr4" kits I have. All have shiny, bluish-painted tins. Two kits are E/WaA392 accepted in the lid along with the code/date. One has a gray beaded chain with simple wire patch loop, sheet steel oiler w/o seam, and a "arr4" coded spoon. The second has a twisted wire chain, sheet steel oiler w/center weld seam, and late stamped/unattributed spoon. The third kit has no WaA, a twisted wire chain, late extruded metal oiler, and late stamped/unattributed spoon. What is a bit unusual is all three kits have the coded/dated and accepted lids on the patch end of the tin. Guess I will have to keep an eye out for a actual WaA57 example...

amended 9.28: Checked and found my arr43 kit bears the WaA57 acceptance.

 

[mrfarb]

Very helpful thread. Took a look at the three "arr4" kits I have. All have shiny, bluish-painted tins. Two kits are E/WaA392 accepted in the lid along with the code/date. One has a gray beaded chain with simple wire patch loop, sheet steel oiler w/o seam, and a "arr4" coded spoon. The second has a twisted wire chain, sheet steel oiler w/center weld seam, and late stamped/unattributed spoon. The third kit has no WaA, a twisted wire chain, late extruded metal oiler, and late stamped/unattributed spoon. What is a bit unusual is all three kits have the coded/dated and accepted lids on the patch end of the tin. Guess I will have to keep an eye out for a actual WaA57 example...

Mine are the same, code on the patch end. If I get a chance I will lay out my spoon comparisons, I'm short on some early marked/dated spoons for photo comparisons. Basically, what I seem to notice is late unmarked spoons can usually be traced back to a maker by comparing to earlier dated spoons. The more variants we have for comparison the better - for example, a cnx marked spoon eventually turned into an unmarked spoon, but the construction method is the same. Similar to the ab marked spoons. With enough direct comparisons you can see what maker the unmarked spoon is from.

It seems to me, as basic as I am, that the late arr4 and rco's with no acceptance may be assembled by at least 3 makers as all lost their waffenamt at the end. The components inside should give clues to the maker in those cases.

 

[Amberg]

More questions than answers. ;-)
As mentioned before, I keep all my cleaning kits in the "as found" condition. Some oil, if rusted, but no guts added/replaced.
The stamped oilers with seam I have, came with WaA57 marked kits and had the very late twisted wire chain with simplified patch loop.
One of those kits is only "arr" (no year!) marked on the lid of the large compartment and the WaA57 stamp inside the lid of the small (patch) compartment.
The "arr4" (no WaA) kit I recently got ( http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?32962-Inquiry-WTT-RG34-parts-worth-doing/page2 #19) had a stamped oiler with no seam and chain with regular patch loop.

Any chance to narrow down the production/assembly lines, comparing the paint?
IIRR all the tan painted cleaning kits I have, bear no WaA. (arr43 - rco45)
Thanks

 

[pwcosol]

Comparing and contrasting the evolution of the individual kit manufacturer's hülsenkopfwischers is a excellent idea. With enough input I think we can make a good effort. However, determining which HKW(s) are "correct" ones will still be quite a task. Since so many RG34s are found missing the HKW or having a post-WW2 replacement, finding a totally compete, "straight" kit to use for comparison is not an easy task***. Seems some good progress has been made in identifying many of the marked subcontract components, and which manufacturers likely used them or were utilized as field replacements. It has been awhile since I have gone completely through my own kits (although I have written down the specifics of each on a inventory list). Still, as I looked at the three "arr4" kits yesterday, I also did so with my "arr43" example. To my dismay, I only then noticed the chain with flat link (no swivel) had all alloy beads, and was a post-WW2 one ! Fortunately I have the "right" one in my spares container, so will rectify that today...

*** Since the RG34 was a favorite with many G.I.s during WW2 to clean & service their own weapons, they are quite often found reflecting this, and were brought home as souvenirs. Typically the HKW was tossed out to make room for more utilitarian, USGI components. Here are two such examples of what was found in a KY1937 kit and arr43 online.

 

[dot]

I'm really starting to believe the scenario that arr4, rco44, and rco45 cans were supplied to 2 other makers other than Brauchschweigische Blechwarenfabrik for assembly by them, and that only Brauchschweigische Blechwarenfabrik used the sheetmetal type oilers. In this case, only those actually assembled by Brauchschweigische Blechwarenfabrik might have the sheetmetal oiler, any kits assembled by the others might never have them.

I am of this opinion too.

I have observed that the sheet metal oilers appear only in kits manufactured/assembled by Braunsweigische Blechwarenfabrik, with WaA392 and without Waffenamt. I think also that these sheet metal oilers probably were made by a subcontractor firm and suplied only to the Braunsweigische Blechwarenfabrik firm and and not used by the other firms, that assembled the kits with cans supplied by that company.

With regard to the welding seam present in the body of many of these oilers, I have observed these oilers in arr43 (with Waffenamt WaA392) and arr4 (no Waffenamt) kits, and oilers without the welding seam in arr4 and rco (no Waffenamt) kits.

I'm the opinion that these stamped oilers were supplied to Braunsweigische Blechwarenfabrik by a subcontractor firm, but probably at first (late 1943/early 1944) they were made "out of tolerance", with the oiler body too long to fit inside the can, and they were cut and soldered together again. Observing the oilers, the ones with the welding seam, have the body a little shorter. Of course, more research in needed.

Antoni

 

[Amberg]

It seems to me, as basic as I am, that the late arr4 and rco's with no acceptance may be assembled by at least 3 makers as all lost their waffenamt at the end. The components inside should give clues to the maker in those cases.

I've tried to narrow down the possible manufacturers/assemblers by collecting data from post war manufacturers. I'm still waiting for a reply from the WTS in Kassel. Hopefully they have some files from the late 1950s/ early 1960s about the RG34.

PS: interestingly the post war G.Appel made cleaning kits have the single groove.

 

[pwcosol]

Been far too long since anyone posted to this pinned thread. Would be nice if we can update to make it current. There have undoubtedly been additional, extensive posts during the past six + years. If anyone recalls one, by all means post a URL to the OP's thread for inclusion. I am going to begin adding pertinent photos copied for my own interests. The first kit below appears to be intact and correct from what is presented. Found it interesting the seller was located in Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md.
Second kit was partial (sans oiler and HKW). What remains appears to be correct period. This one I picked up, as having arr43 & arr4 w/WaA57, WaA392 or no WaA behalter, the WaA20 variant had eluded me... but no longer. IMHO, the majority of Braunsweigische Blechwarenfabrik Rg34s I encounter are all too often found missing components, having mixed ones and/or USGI ones (brass or blued steel w/twine bore brush/patch sets, .30 brush for same, steel ribbed camel back cleaning brushes, etc.
Much of this holds true for other manufacturers as well, but seems even more so with this maker...

 

[pwcosol]

Regarding oilers, the pictured example appears to be a later variant from G APPEL. Oiler is unattributed, has crimped/soldered stem, pronounced rim around screw head, slight crimp ring impressions on the hull at each end, standard screw on bottom cap and unground nub on underside as well. I believe there is a very similar one pictured on Antoni's Rg34 Blogspot website. However, the cap seals are of leather (as opposed to black rubber). Thoughts welcome...

 

[Slash]

I am of this opinion too.

I have observed that the sheet metal oilers appear only in kits manufactured/assembled by Braunsweigische Blechwarenfabrik, with WaA392 and without Waffenamt. I think also that these sheet metal oilers probably were made by a subcontractor firm and suplied only to the Braunsweigische Blechwarenfabrik firm and and not used by the other firms, that assembled the kits with cans supplied by that company.

With regard to the welding seam present in the body of many of these oilers, I have observed these oilers in arr43 (with Waffenamt WaA392) and arr4 (no Waffenamt) kits, and oilers without the welding seam in arr4 and rco (no Waffenamt) kits.

I'm the opinion that these stamped oilers were supplied to Braunsweigische Blechwarenfabrik by a subcontractor firm, but probably at first (late 1943/early 1944) they were made "out of tolerance", with the oiler body too long to fit inside the can, and they were cut and soldered together again. Observing the oilers, the ones with the welding seam, have the body a little shorter. Of course, more research in needed.

Antoni

I am a big fan the sheet metal oilers (SMO). Have compiled quite a bit of data over the years some of which is detailed in the link below. I agree with most of what has been written here. As far as the length of the oil bottles have some information on this as well. Have disassembled and measured several dozen of these oilers and complied data accordingly. I understand that this is a very small sample but one has to start somewhere.

Average overall length of welded body type - 99.05 mm
Average overall length of seamless body type - 101.95 mm

Longest and shortest recorded welded body example - 101.10 & 97.75 mm
Longest and shortest recorded seamless body example - 102.65 & 101.05 mm


Average length of body section (welded) type - 63.20 mm
Average length of body section (seamless) type - 65.35 mm

Longest and shortest recorded body section (welded) example - 64.45 & 62.00 mm
Longest and shortest recorded body section (seamless) example - 65.55 & 64.80 mm

These figures vary slightly from those reported in the pinned thread as additional examples have been measured and included. Measurements for the other components (spout, bolt, spring, bottom, base, etc) do not exhibit significant variance. For whatever reasons the welded body oil bottles are consistently shorter than the seamless style.

Another observation is that the body sections of the seamless type SMO are more consistent in length than the welded type body components. This may support the theory that the welded bodies were originally fabricated out of tolerance and corrected for length. And furthermore possibly provides evidence that the welded types are earlier before the length issues was corrected in subsequent production phases. My thoughts only .....


Pinned research thread regarding the SMO bottles:

The Sheet Metal Oil Bottle for rg34

The Sheet Metal Oiler is a simplified oil bottle constructed primarily from stamped metal components. These oilers function essentially the same as the earlier finely machined metal, phenolic material, or simplified versions. Although somewhat crude, the sheet metal oilers are still designed...

www.k98kforum.com

 

[pwcosol]

Two additional links going back as far as 2018 for reference:

https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/my-little-collection-in-rg34.42946/

https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/braunschweigische-blechwarenfabrik-rg34s.43472/