Very Strange Gew98 Rework

[ugafx4]

any Gew98 marked 1920 and if see if any are Circle S marked.

I was reading the the Still books and studying the circle s luger photos and had this same exact thought. Still actually has a surprising number of circle S marked lugers photographed.

If it helps, Still says in "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" p.36 "An Oct. 19. 1922 decree by the Prussian Ministry of the Interior ordered the major repair of the K98 {should probably be G98}, MG08, MP and P.08 to be undertaken at the Simson and Co. Suhl factory. (Wotka, 1993)."

Same book, p. 25 regarding the 1920 stamp, "Imperial Lugers intended for Weimar, military or police use were reworked by a number of firms including Simson and DWM, and by miltary and police armories. ... Most bear the 1920 Reichswehr stamp and were routed to Army, Navy or police use during the Weimar period with the majority going to the police."

 

[ugafx4]

Here is an interesting circle S luger. Kept its long barrel which wasn't common.

 

[chrisftk]

Just to throw a few more pictures for the discussion:

1) 1917 Amberg 98M (no 1920 mark) with EWB stock, reworked with a wrist Magdeburg stamp.

There looks to be part of a circle on the bottom of the receiver of this one, but hard to say what it is.

2) Amberg 1917 "1920" stamped and later cut down to k98k length (original barrel)

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[RyanE]

I was reading the the Still books and studying the circle s luger photos and had this same exact thought. Still actually has a surprising number of circle S marked lugers photographed.

If it helps, Still says in "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" p.36 "An Oct. 19. 1922 decree by the Prussian Ministry of the Interior ordered the major repair of the K98 {should probably be G98}, MG08, MP and P.08 to be undertaken at the Simson and Co. Suhl factory. (Wotka, 1993)."

Same book, p. 25 regarding the 1920 stamp, "Imperial Lugers intended for Weimar, military or police use were reworked by a number of firms including Simson and DWM, and by miltary and police armories. ... Most bear the 1920 Reichswehr stamp and were routed to Army, Navy or police use during the Weimar period with the majority going to the police."

I would want to see the document, because I am wondering if someone might have misunderstood the decree or mistranslated it. Certainly, Simson was the only company allowed to produce parts, but I don't know that they would be fixing Gew98s, etc in house. Simson would want to sell new (and more expensive) guns, not fix broken ones. The Reichswehr had their depots to do that work.

So I am guessing the decree might be about purchasing repair parts and new guns, but without seeing it who knows. Maybe Paul or someone more knowledgeable about the various arrangements during the 1920s can comment.

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[flynaked]

One thing of note, which could potentially be explained a couple of different ways, is the differences in these markings. All of the ones stamped on rifles both lack serifs and are perfectly concentric, all of the ones stamped on lugers are just the opposite. Same marking different time period or a different one all together? Unless it’s isolated, which doesn’t appear to be the case given the odds, it doesn’t appear on any of the 98m examples presented.

 

[Loewe]

I doubt much overhauling or reworking was done at Simson, especially as early as October 1922. Germany was a madhouse until August 1924, when the US "helped" with Dawes, though like all meddling had significant consequences later (US could have "helped" most had they stayed firmly neutral through the war, both in spirit and actuality...). The only real evidence I have seen that Simson was involved in reworking rifles is the 1929 experiments dealing with shortening the inventory of K98b to 98k, the document states that Simson would be undesirable for this program because of the expense, which suggest some work was done by Simson in the past. I do not doubt that Simson was contracted to handle such work as needed, but little evidence has survived to confirm it or judge how common it occurred. What is known is that the German command was broken in three parts, Cassel/Kassel in the west, Berlin in the east with Königsberg as a semi-autonomous command in separated East Prussia, all three are in evidence of Republican era work, though the last is hard to date, I think later work, nearer the assumption of power by the national socialist. That both CL and KL are known and that we know the date in the change occurred in 1926, means a substantial number of G98's were worked before 1926 in Cassel which suggests to me that Simson was not the preferred facility, probably due to cost. Also we know the HZa system was in extensive operation fairly early, HZa Zeithen builds are known as early as 1924. Simson and DWM probably had some role with P08 and MG's but G98's and 98a, I doubt it was extensive, certainly few if any rifles have survived showing such work, or if it does exist it was conducted in a manner that currently defies association or identification.

 

[ugafx4]

I would want to see the document, because I am wondering if someone might have misunderstood the decree or mistranslated it. Certainly, Simson was the only company allowed to produce parts, but I don't know that they would be fixing Gew98s, etc in house. Simson would want to sell new (and more expensive) guns, not fix broken ones. The Reichswehr had their depots to do that work.

So I am guessing the decree might be about purchasing repair parts and new guns, but without seeing it who knows. Maybe Paul or someone more knowledgeable about the various arrangements during the 1920s can comment.

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I do not want to clog up this thread with Simson talk because I personally agree the 2 stamps we are looking at are different, but wanted to follow up on this. It appears Still cites a conversation he had with this Wotka gentleman. I could not find a primary source for this decree. I dug into "The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols" by Gortz and Sturgess and they had a few of the Simson contracts. As mentioned by both you are Loewe, there was not anything about repair that I could see in them. (They were not transcribed in their fully though). These two contracts were written after the "decree" mentioned but looks like that is going to be a dead end.

 

[Loewe]

JoeW is a first rate researcher and his observations would be useful, he frequents here too, or use to... I "think" I read in Ed Tinker's Simson book something in this regard, but it isn't handy at the moment. It seems to me that the time frame involved and the proximity of Suhl, Zeithain and Cassel to one another, the limited "work" available (by 1924 the disarmament of rifles was largely complete and the illegal rifles were largely in the east, hidden by paramilitary groups working with elements of the RH - I doubt they would find their way to Simson even if work was needed, the state of Prussia was in a mini-war trying to recover them but under Heye this was remedied by his work & cooperation with the Central government) would leave Simson as the lesser of the three for such work, There is some evidence Zeithan worked on repair of rifles and even on P08.

Anyway, an interesting subject, one unfortunately that relies upon assumptions more than facts.

 

[DukeIronHand]

(US could have "helped" most had they stayed firmly neutral through the war, both in spirit and actuality...).

In what context?

 

[flynaked]

Came across this one online, it’s a sporter so no telling what all the rifle was originally BUT the style is very much pre 1945. This is another Amberg receiver and there’s a circle S again.

 

[ugafx4]

With Ryan's new stamp revelations, lets bring this thread back up.

Because it appears the two stamps are separate would they have marked "questionable" Lugers with the circle, and once fixed at Depot put an S in the middle of it?

 

[mrfarb]

What if the circle represents a questionable item, and the S is the depot that marked it as such? There are also some with just a circle, some SS snipers for sure have them.

Lets talk SS Deaths Heads

Very helpful diagram. Nice to finally see trends starting with these. Mike, if you want a date for a = head, just see my thread down the page. http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?35811-dhd-gew-conversion Also, I believe one of my lazy s rifles is an early ‘37. I’ll check when I get a...

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