why the lack of 1942 rifles ?

[builttoughf350]

Ive always been curious as to the REAL answer for the lack of 1942 rifles-

Did they decrease production for that year ? Lack of materials ? Did they all get sent to the Eastern Front immediately ?

I suppose any theory could work, but maybe theres one solid theory everyone goes with ? Maybe theres evidence of the true reason ?

 

[mauser99]

the little known side action called the eastern front !

read b.b.o.w. There is real good info there. In 1940 the A.H. said, All Germany's foes could be defeated with all available small arms on hand. The major downturn in production was put into place in 1941 and serial extensions prove that. But, it takes time to ramp back up. Not till 1943 was it running @ full speed. Plus the simplifications to the k98 helped once in place. All this plus the attrition rate all add up to a real lack of 41 & 42 dated k98's turning up.

 

[D-K]

I am not sure why people say 42 production is hard to come by--they seem to popping up at auction with good frequency. While some 42 codes are harder to find than others, most are not rare or difficult to find.

 

[Loewe]

While the Russian Front probably did absorb most new 1942 production, the armaments shortages of 1941-1942 had little to do with the Russian Campaign; it only greatly aggravated an existing problem. It was nazi economic policy and the military procurement policies that was the problem.

Before the first German soldier crossed into Russia in June 1941, Hitler was aware of the problems and was trying to resolve the problem with Todt and Thomas recommendations. It wasn't until the Russian campaign turned to a disaster, having the annoying problem of not ending by winter 1941, that the situation really made radical changes an emergency and get Hitler to put his foot down on the military and political infighting (which was the main problem). Even with Hitler's direct involvement and giving Speer wide powers, - and Hitler's authority to act independently - it still took nearly a year to get German war production up to something resembling its capability. (which it never achieved, - German industry was incredibly advanced and modern in certain fields, the stupidity of the military and nazi economic policy was breathtaking up until 1942, - it had nothing to do with mobilizing the economy for war, by 1942 it was more mobilized than Britain or America, - and Hitler ordered total mobilization for war the day Britain and France declared war in September 1939)

 

[Loewe]

I agree, 1942 production is not especially difficult, some makers are tougher than others, but this was because of the rationalization of German industry Speer ordered. Directing certain firms to other tasks, keep the more efficient and streamlining methods and techniques through the rings Todt developed before his death.

Some makers are elusive because they stopped production in 1942, - I would have to check, but I am fairly sure production increased, rifle wise, every year of the war, though it never was able to keep up with losses or achieve what it could have. Concentrating production in the most efficient firms, MO-Brno was intentional, as it was in all armament fields after 1941 (aircraft, guns, vehicles) , - others were kept for other reasons, the assemblers, who were already organized around the sub-contracting system (Gustloff, JPS & SDP were organized around assembly of components made by others by 1942)

Anyway, an interesting and neglected topic on the forums.

I am not sure why people say 42 production is hard to come by--they seem to popping up at auction with good frequency. While some 42 codes are harder to find than others, most are not rare or difficult to find.

 

[Bigdibbs88]

I am not sure why people say 42 production is hard to come by--they seem to popping up at auction with good frequency. While some 42 codes are harder to find than others, most are not rare or difficult to find.

By production numbers almost no k98s are really that rare.....

 

[maxximmumm]

Concentrating production in the most efficient firms, MO : depends how you assess 'efficiency' - Mauser was a monolithic profit motivated company that thoroughly abused its position within the armaments sector via influence peddling and in collusion with the military and party persons it had corrupted to maintain sectoral dominance and to maximise price gouging - by most objective standards MO could only be marked down as grossly inefficient - the real leaders in design and innovation (in all its facets) were Haenel, Walther and others - not Mauser

"]Anyway, an interesting and neglected topic on the forums.[/: well you're sure right about that! - so far there has been no shortage of nonsense published in the many 'expert' reference works - I would go so far as to say BBOW should get a special award for amount of nonsense appearing per Chapter in print, and most forums regurgitate what has been published without any attempt at a review - I'm going to guess that you'll have a hard time getting a deep and meaningful conversation started on that topic - but good luck on it

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I agree, 1942 production is not especially difficult, some makers are tougher than others, but this was because of the rationalization of German industry Speer ordered. Directing certain firms to other tasks, keep the more efficient and streamlining methods and techniques through the rings Todt developed before his death.

Some makers are elusive because they stopped production in 1942, - I would have to check, but I am fairly sure production increased, rifle wise, every year of the war, though it never was able to keep up with losses or achieve what it could have. Concentrating production in the most efficient firms, MO-Brno was intentional, as it was in all armament fields after 1941 (aircraft, guns, vehicles) , - others were kept for other reasons, the assemblers, who were already organized around the sub-contracting system (Gustloff, JPS & SDP were organized around assembly of components made by others by 1942)

Anyway, an interesting and neglected topic on the forums.

 

[D-K]

By production numbers almost no k98s are really that rare.....

I am not talking about production numbers; I am talking about the frequency these rifles are available to collectors in matching/original form. By production, svw45 is rare with only about 12,000 made. The truth is svw45 rifles are not that difficult to find (yes, I know their late production contributes to their survival rates). I would say the same for most 1942-made rifles: I have seen ~10 matching, original BCD 42 for sale over the last few years and about that many BYF 42 rifles. Of all the 1942 rifles, I would consider bcd/ar and ar hard to find but would not go so far to say they are rare. Like many other collectors, I am tired of the word "rare" attributed to things that are not rare. To date, I have never seen an original, matching S/27 1936 for sale and only one S/243 1936 for sale. I would consider those rare. I admit there was a time I thought 1942 rifles were difficult to find, but after tracking auction data for a few years, it's just not the case.

 

[tsmgguy]

It's only anecdotal, but I've seen exactly one all original, matching, true GI bringback byf 42 98K being offered for sale. I bought it. It's 6137l, pictured below.

I generally have my nose to the ground looking for nice 98K examples, and I have to agree with the OP: it does seem that '42s are a bit hard to come by, at least in the US, particularly those produced early enough in the year so that they lack the first of the wartime mods intended to speed production.

 

[M1903A3]

This is a fascinating thread! I have often wondered about where k98s went versus their current survival rate. That is to say, assuming that (at that time) current production was going heavily to units either in or about to be involved in Russia, and knowing that many of those are now lost forever, could anything be known about this compared against current known rifles?

The same could be wondered about Japanese rifles that went into China versus those that went east to serve against the USA. I have no data about this personally, it is just something I think about, often when looking through pictures from the Eastern Front, wondering about the exact fates of the people, places and things in those pictures.

 

[Loewe]

How does one define or assess efficiency, - well the only criteria that matters in the midst of a war is numbers made and accepted by the military (one can define it by cost, profit or utilization of material, but considering national socialist economic policy rarely, if ever, considered cost as a significant factor before 1941, it would be irrelevant when you are analyzing their definition of efficiency):

Here are the production numbers for each year by each firm that made rifles (where possible taken from official postwar reports, others are estimates based upon known ranges):

BLM- 40/129k / 41/139k / 42/134k
Brno (dot & dou)- 41/154k / 42/193k / 43/410k / 44/730k
ERMA - 40/140k / 41/90k
GW-bcd - 40/110k / 41/143k / 42/219k / 43/321k / 44/261k
S&S-JPS - 40/230k / 41/220k / 42/200k / 43/320k / 44/230k
MB- 40/200k / 41/120k / 42/110k / 43/120k
MO - 40/350k / 41/420k / 42/450k / 43/550k / 44/665k
SDP - 40/118k / 41/232k / 42/202k / 43/286k / 44/279k

As anyone can see, the firms that remained on the Kar.98k were the firms that were the largest and most efficient firms engaged in the 98k production (MO & Brno - Brno's are deceptive for a number of reasons, one it includes both dot & dou and they were making many things plus the SS and Army were constantly meddling in production) or they were firms engaged in assembly, which was the path decided upon for future production (it became the normal method across the entire arms industry).

It is a simple fact, whether you like Mauser as a company or not, that MO and Brno were the only firms to make most of the components in house and retained high standards throughout the war, - no other firm did this to the same extent and to suggest Fritz Walther wasn't the match of Günther Quandt in his "corruption" of military and party officials is absurd, Fritz Walther, while a exceptional man in arms design, was a pig of enormous proportions, a full fledge nazi scumbag, - and there are many people who do not agree with your assessment that the real leaders in design and innovations didn't include Mauser Oberndorf... to suggest such make you look ignorant.

Regarding your "expert" reference books comments, one can only guess what you are referring too, however considering you mention Backbone and we are speaking of the 98k, that only leaves Mike & Bruce's book series, - if you have such a low regard for the books, why are you here?

Concentrating production in the most efficient firms, MO : depends how you assess 'efficiency' - Mauser was a monolithic profit motivated company that thoroughly abused its position within the armaments sector via influence peddling and in collusion with the military and party persons it had corrupted to maintain sectoral dominance and to maximise price gouging - by most objective standards MO could only be marked down as grossly inefficient - the real leaders in design and innovation (in all its facets) were Haenel, Walther and others - not Mauser

"]Anyway, an interesting and neglected topic on the forums.[/: well you're sure right about that! - so far there has been no shortage of nonsense published in the many 'expert' reference works - I would go so far as to say BBOW should get a special award for amount of nonsense appearing per Chapter in print, and most forums regurgitate what has been published without any attempt at a review - I'm going to guess that you'll have a hard time getting a deep and meaningful conversation started on that topic - but good luck on it

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


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[Loewe]

I agree, very few 98k are rare, most that are will be early production and in some cases condition or variation rarities, but few wartime rifles would be "rare", - perhaps a few elusive in matching condition. (In exceptional grades you can find "rare" rifles though... normally elusive rifles, which are really high end-problem free, but those rifles rarely come up for sale on GB or auction sites)

... Like many other collectors, I am tired of the word "rare" attributed to things that are not rare. To date, I have never seen an original, matching S/27 1936 for sale and only one S/243 1936 for sale. I would consider those rare. I admit there was a time I thought 1942 rifles were difficult to find, but after tracking auction data for a few years, it's just not the case.

 

[maxximmumm]

every one is entitled to their own assessements and so are you - I haven't been loggged on since I wrote that post some days ago so apologise (not to you but to the authors of Kriegsmodell) for the slight delay in rectifying your wayward comments in last para:- YOUR ASSUMPTION OF WHOM I WAS REFERRING TO IS WRONG

did using capitals impress that upon you adequately?

your method of proving efficiency by quoting output is, of itself, unconvincing - it is too narrow a method, and produces a false picture



__________________________________________________________________________________________

How does one define or assess efficiency, - well the only criteria that matters in the midst of a war is numbers made and accepted by the military (one can define it by cost, profit or utilization of material, but considering national socialist economic policy rarely, if ever, considered cost as a significant factor before 1941, it would be irrelevant when you are analyzing their definition of efficiency):

Here are the production numbers for each year by each firm that made rifles (where possible taken from official postwar reports, others are estimates based upon known ranges):

BLM- 40/129k / 41/139k / 42/134k
Brno (dot & dou)- 41/154k / 42/193k / 43/410k / 44/730k
ERMA - 40/140k / 41/90k
GW-bcd - 40/110k / 41/143k / 42/219k / 43/321k / 44/261k
S&S-JPS - 40/230k / 41/220k / 42/200k / 43/320k / 44/230k
MB- 40/200k / 41/120k / 42/110k / 43/120k
MO - 40/350k / 41/420k / 42/450k / 43/550k / 44/665k
SDP - 40/118k / 41/232k / 42/202k / 43/286k / 44/279k

As anyone can see, the firms that remained on the Kar.98k were the firms that were the largest and most efficient firms engaged in the 98k production (MO & Brno - Brno's are deceptive for a number of reasons, one it includes both dot & dou and they were making many things plus the SS and Army were constantly meddling in production) or they were firms engaged in assembly, which was the path decided upon for future production (it became the normal method across the entire arms industry).

It is a simple fact, whether you like Mauser as a company or not, that MO and Brno were the only firms to make most of the components in house and retained high standards throughout the war, - no other firm did this to the same extent and to suggest Fritz Walther wasn't the match of Günther Quandt in his "corruption" of military and party officials is absurd, Fritz Walther, while a exceptional man in arms design, was a pig of enormous proportions, a full fledge nazi scumbag, - and there are many people who do not agree with your assessment that the real leaders in design and innovations didn't include Mauser Oberndorf... to suggest such make you look ignorant.

Regarding your "expert" reference books comments, one can only guess what you are referring too, however considering you mention Backbone and we are speaking of the 98k, that only leaves Mike & Bruce's book series, - if you have such a low regard for the books, why are you here?

 

[Loewe]

What a tragedy, - your absence was not noticed...

... I haven't been loggged on since I wrote that post some days ago so apologise...

 

[Hambone]

I am not sure why people say 42 production is hard to come by--they seem to popping up at auction with good frequency. While some 42 codes are harder to find than others, most are not rare or difficult to find.

If we go by production, an all matching original Finn M.39 SkY 1942 would be "rare" as would a 1941 Sako M.39 straight stock. However, I doubt anyone would refer to those as "rare" even though their production is infinitesimal compared to any K98k.

It's interesting with K98ks, but sometimes the number produced for a date/code is not reflected in observable examples, or rather, examples which survived. I can't add to the intellectual commentary on this subject already offered, particularly by Loewe, but it's common knowledge / conventional wisdom that total war, particularly Barbarossa and the Ost Front, chewed up rifles and gear and the majority of those likely ended up rusted in the ground or melted for post-war Soviet manhole covers or rebar. Among those rifles would be many 41 and 42 date weapons. Factor in production slumps for those periods and there you go.

 

[Hambone]

... I haven't been loggged on since I wrote that post some days ago so apologise...

What a tragedy, - your absence was not noticed...

I think he's directing you to apologize for his absence Loewe. That's my read of it.

 

[Loewe]

I'm sure that was his intention, he just couldn't spit it out without pouting...

Really though, I had forgotten his existence, which is easy to do considering the "expert" of saying nothing of importance rarely posts, - which is probably the best thing that can said about him...

I think he's directing you to apologize for his absence Loewe. That's my read of it.

 

[basile]

While the Russian Front probably did absorb most new 1942 production, the armaments shortages of 1941-1942 had little to do with the Russian Campaign; it only greatly aggravated an existing problem. It was nazi economic policy and the military procurement policies that was the problem.

Before the first German soldier crossed into Russia in June 1941, Hitler was aware of the problems and was trying to resolve the problem with Todt and Thomas recommendations. It wasn't until the Russian campaign turned to a disaster, having the annoying problem of not ending by winter 1941, that the situation really made radical changes an emergency and get Hitler to put his foot down on the military and political infighting (which was the main problem). Even with Hitler's direct involvement and giving Speer wide powers, - and Hitler's authority to act independently - it still took nearly a year to get German war production up to something resembling its capability. (which it never achieved, - German industry was incredibly advanced and modern in certain fields, the stupidity of the military and nazi economic policy was breathtaking up until 1942, - it had nothing to do with mobilizing the economy for war, by 1942 it was more mobilized than Britain or America, - and Hitler ordered total mobilization for war the day Britain and France declared war in September 1939)

Your assessment is correct, IMO, based on what I have read. Add to the fact that Hitler was all too aware of the shortages / privations in the German economy of the First World war that led to the collapse of civilian morale in 1918. He tried to supply butter and guns at first and it is not until 1943 that Germany actually moves to a total war economy. The vicious infighting among the competing interests of the different branches of the Wehrmacht and later the SS certainly hurt production, as did the German inflexibility when it came to demanding way too much quality control versus quantity of product produced. Even with Hitler's backing, Speer had to fight the same battles over and over again, as the military and industry fought him at every turn.

 

[M1903A3]

Let me ask this question because I do find this topic very interesting : has anyone noticed of logged any tendencies of Russian captured guns? That is to say, are there more 1941 and 42 guns appearing (or have been seen) as captured guns?

From a purist collecting standpoint I can completely understand the aversion to R/C guns, I'm just wondering if anyone has noticed a preponderance of years and/or makers seen in R/C guns.

Just think how many, like was said before by Hambone, k98's were NEVER recovered, still lying where they were dropped, or were recovered and unusable, or melted down post war.

 

[M1903A3]

On another note, I think I just talked myself into looking out for a good, early R/C gun haha