Questionable Camos

[Player11]

Anyone who has owned a car up north knows that rust can grow under paint and will blister it then the paint falls off when it cracks and breaks. This is nothing new. If anyone thinks that rust cant grow under paint must re-think things..

True and agree with you, but not in all. Nobody says that rust cant grow up under the paint, just the way it acts with fake camo paint.This is too much!!

 

[mauser99]

True and agree with you, but not in all. Nobody says that rust cant grow up under the paint, just the way it acts with fake camo paint.This is too much!!

Ok, I don't fake camo helmets and don't own any so Im a novice to techniques. I was making a statement on rust and only the rust...

 

[Spoof]

As for the two WAF helmets I think the 1st has more of a chance than the second but, I wouldn't own either...

I agree. Someone needs to police those classifieds.

 

[Player11]

Ok, I don't fake camo helmets and don't own any so Im a novice to techniques. I was making a statement on rust and only the rust...

Dont worry we are all here (all) to learn. I said that is not exactly what you said, due that a car with paint and the rust is poping up through the paint, true! but we cant compare de grade of oxidation of a camo helmet and a car. the car is allways exposes to to the enviroment ( the grade of oxidation is very high), and a good camo is, supposed to be well keept, except when you find a camo forgotten in a barn, wich due the amount of years being there, the corrosion has eaten the paint.

A helmet with rust wich is recently painted, offers a low level of keep the fake camo paint intact, the corrosion that comes from the helmet itself " eates" the paint. An original camo helmet, wich was painted with little corrosion 70 years ago, the paint makes a kind of protection ( allways speaking of a helmet well preserved) you may see a little corrosion in the areas where the helmet is damaged.

 

[M45]

Here you can see how old rust is putting up the new camo.

Now M45 will come and will say that yes, not good but our reasons are bad arguemented

I also dont like the other camo. I think it has belonged to a well known dealer. He has had some more fakes in his site ( but not with paranoic history of M45), even i wrote to him to let him this, i remember that the helmet was removed.

Dont worry we are all here (all) to learn. I said that is not exactly what you said, due that a car with paint and the rust is poping up through the paint, true! but we cant compare de grade of oxidation of a camo helmet and a car. the car is allways exposes to to the enviroment ( the grade of oxidation is very high), and a good camo is, supposed to be well keept, except when you find a camo forgotten in a barn, wich due the amount of years being there, the corrosion has eaten the paint.

A helmet with rust wich is recently painted, offers a low level of keep the fake camo paint intact, the corrosion that comes from the helmet itself " eates" the paint. An original camo helmet, wich was painted with little corrosion 70 years ago, the paint makes a kind of protection ( allways speaking of a helmet well preserved) you may see a little corrosion in the areas where the helmet is damaged.

So, rust can only bubble up on original helmets, not fake ones ? Hogwash. The photo shows a classic exotic freshie Normandy 3 color with some rust bubbling up in certain spots. Essentially only one type of wear on this, a huge red flag. No other types of dings, scrapes rub marks, scratches, etc... REX-39 would probably tell you that it's not rocket science how this is done. I suspect that after painting, certain areas of the paint are degraded with something like paint thinner, lacquer thinner, or acetone etc... leaving small holes in the paint. As the work of art sets outside to 'cook', air penetrates the degraded areas and causes the bare steel to begin rusting underneath the paint. As the surface rusts, the paint bubbles up and flakes off.

 

[M45]

It's amazing to me how period photos of exotic helmets surface, and then very similar exotic camos emerge from the woodwork.

Or is it the other way around, exotic freshies surface, and then the period photos are found ?

Either way, I guess the period photo proves that these exotic freshies are original.


Waaaait a minute.... is it possible that fakers are using period photos of exotic camos as templates to create their own exotic freshies, then pointing to period photos to justify them ??

 

[Player11]

So, rust can only bubble up on original helmets not fake ones ? Hogwash. The photo shows a classic exotic freshie Normandy 3 color with some rust bubbling up in certain spots. Essentially only one type of wear on this, a huge red flag. No other types of dings, scrapes rub marks, scratches, etc... REX-39 would probably tell you that it's not rocket science how this is done. I suspect that after painting, certain areas of the paint are degraded with something like paint thinner, lacquer thinner, or acetone etc... leaving small holes in the paint. As the work of art sets outside to 'cook', air penetrates the degraded areas and causes the bare steel to begin rusting underneath the paint. As the surface rusts, the paint bubbles up and flakes off.

Like allways, late and bad.
Dont really know where i have written " rust can only bubble up on original helmets not fake ones "
ITS ABSOLUTELY AT THE CONTRARY

Or you are all the day drinking or you are living in a paralel dimenssion, because every history you try to explain, you explain it wrongly. Thats not new that fakers will try to copy pics ( BECAUSE AT THE END, THOSE PICS SHOW REAL HELMETS ), nobody needs to be Einstein to know this, Well it seems you need more time to think it

 

[Player11]

AAAhhhhhh wait a minute!!!! a pic showing a tunisian camo is the same model than your "winter camo" post next to the pic?.
Do you think is really the same pattern a mediterranean patter than a winter camo? for what is posted in the pics it seems that you have any kind of problem to see the difference in the model of the pics.

ARE YOU SURE DO THEY ARE THE SAME PATTERN ?????!!!!! Amazing!!!!

 

[Player11]

Waaaaaait two minutes...
Fakers are using period pics to create their camo fakers?? Using B&W pics???!!!! What the Hell...
Following this way, I'm not going to have enough room in my signature to post all your sentences!!!!!
Hahahahahaha

 

[Anders]

Waaaaaait two minutes...
Fakers are using period pics to create their camo fakers?? Using B&W pics???!!!! What the Hell...
Following this way, I'm not going to have enough room in my signature to post all your sentences!!!!!
Hahahahahaha

 

[Player11]

Signature changed, not enought room for all your pearls

 

[Hambone]

Long ago in 2005 when I was banned for not properly frog marching with the waftarded "exotic freshie" krewe, I set forth the "85% Rule". I still believe it appropriate today. You can safely presume that 85% of "camo" helmets are fakes. Before assailing this general rule by pointing to a grouping of helmets which defies the 85% Rule, please have a basic understanding of statistics and probability modeling. That is, watch the Our Gang - Little Rascals episode called "Baby Blues":
http://www.tv.com/shows/little-rascals/baby-blues-220463/

 

[Player11]

Long ago in 2005 when I was banned for not properly frog marching with the waftarded "exotic freshie" krewe, I set forth the "85% Rule". I still believe it appropriate today. You can safely presume that 85% of "camo" helmets are fakes. Before assailing this general rule by pointing to a grouping of helmets which defies the 85% Rule, please have a basic understanding of statistics and probability modeling. That is, watch the Our Gang - Little Rascals episode called "Baby Blues":
http://www.tv.com/shows/little-rascals/baby-blues-220463/

Sorry, i dont agree with your point of view, i respet it, but i dont agree. For that same reason, the same % of decaled helmet may be the same, because no one of us have been in the factory where they built.

Remember that collecting helmets 30 years ago was not so popular like today, agree, that tendence of copying helmets will grow up strongly those years and in a future they will be hard to point out.

But somebody with an astral paranoya like M45 cant clearly point out the fakes camos because as he sais one time " he deals in probabilities" thats not a statement for a camo person who considers himself a guru. Camos MUST be handled and in his collection i have just seem 3 poors ND M42s, not a single camo. Im sure he hasnt seen one in his life

 

[jhv 41]

The field of camo helmet collecting has always frankly scared the bejjesus out of me - I think many others have stated correctly it is a minefield.

Great War Walt Disney specials or real?

 

[M45]

Long ago in 2005 when I was banned for not properly frog marching with the waftarded "exotic freshie" krewe, I set forth the "85% Rule". I still believe it appropriate today. You can safely presume that 85% of "camo" helmets are fakes. Before assailing this general rule by pointing to a grouping of helmets which defies the 85% Rule, please have a basic understanding of statistics and probability modeling. That is, watch the Our Gang - Little Rascals episode called "Baby Blues":
http://www.tv.com/shows/little-rascals/baby-blues-220463/

85% is a good rule for camos in general. I see painted snow camos and red cross medic helmets at about 95-99% fake. And what about exotic white painted snow camos ? What number is the closest to 100% - 99.9999% ?

To understand how the exotic freshie camo train operates, take a cue from the Champagne SS debacle. Most of these just appear, make their way to forums, some with interesting woodwork find stories from barns or vet's trunks, some with shoddy paperwork, are largely applauded with serious naysayers demonized as nuts or agitators. This is how attempts are made to shape collector thinking concerning what is real and what is fake. Reasonable dissent is effectively eliminated by warnings, harassment, suspensions, bans. Glad to see that's not the way things are done here.

It would be nice to see some reasonable dissent to my view but it appears as if the opposition is only able to offer jeers and jabs.

Where did these helmets really come from ? Any rock-solid provenance, or were they just pulled out of the woodwork by pickers and deemed authentic by dealers ?

This is one of the very few "one looker" original snow camouflage helmets that I have ever owned. - Ken N.
This is one of the very few medic helmets which I judged as real from the second I laid my eyes on it. - Ken N.

NOTE: I see nothing here representing originality, IMO.

 

[Player11]

You have choosen the most faked and the most hardest camo to identify. When i have handled more than 10 snow camos i don't own any of them and will avoid them, but if handling them is hard to identify them, i cant imagine how hard may be for someone who has never handled one.
The opposition to your work is made due to the stupids things a man can writte. When you will be able to writte something with sense i will deal with you as you deserve, meanwhile......

 

[Hambone]

You have choosen the most faked and the most hardest camo to identify. When i have handled more than 10 snow camos i don't own any of them and will avoid them, but if handling them is hard to identify them, i cant imagine how hard may be for someone who has never handled one.
The opposition to your work is made due to the stupids things a man can writte. When you will be able to writte something with sense i will deal with you as you deserve, meanwhile......

What he is saying is not "stupid". It is his opinion and he is entitled to it here. You are entitled to your opinions as well. However, what is not helping this site, forum, or the merits of your positions is your reliance upon personal insults. You would not be allowed to engage in such conduct elsewhere, so don't do it here. M45 and I disagree on things but he has a right here to express his opinions opposing mine. I do not censor people for disagreeing with me because the goal here is reaching the correct answer, the truth. That is what we are about here.

 

[M45]

GHW2 medic, a strange discussion ensued where it appeared there was some evasiveness as to its origin. Some said they knew the source and that was apparently good enough for them. However, others pressed the issue and now the poster has some trouble with a sick dog and will be away for awhile.

I understand the thread has since been locked. If anything it shows that some GHW members are not putting up with this garbage sitting down. And that's the way it should be; question these exotic freshies.

What is the helmet's source ?

-We know what the source is.

Fine, but tell us what the source is; a dealer ?

-I've got to go and care for my sick dog.

THREAD LOCKED

Now let's discuss the definition of 'openness'

 

[dagoromagna]

I own the helmet depicted in pictures N°1 and N°8.
By the way picture N°8 is mine.

The helmet firstly appeared in this thread on the (here) infamous WAF: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599941&highlight=M42+field+made+cover&page=2

I have the helmet in hands as the second owner, the first owner was a Collector Friend of mine, that sold the helmet to a well known dealer (an immediate kiss of Death for Mr.Ice...who has a personal problem with the above seller, but that shouldn't affect the helmet evaluation in this "K98-perfect-Forum-where-honesty-is-in-first-place").

Yes...camos are heavily faked.
Red Cross and snow camos are easy to fake.

But Mr.Ice didn't handle all the Red Cross and Snow camos in the world.
Nor he handled all the camos.

It's not true that a real camo MUST be heavily worn...this GI collected a real and "minty" Red Cross...what if he brought home that one and handled it carefully 'til our days?

There were unlucky Germans that fought and died with their camoed helmets at the Front.
There were lucky Germans who camoed their helmets even if not involved in Frontline duties (It's easy to see it in European Museums, for example in Jersey and Guernsey).


BTW....I'm happy with my helmet and think that is real.
If somebody here wants to see more of it just ask.
I dont' act as a guru trying to educate masses with my theories.
I usually don't steal photos from Others to prove them.

This thread, while in its pages has some good points, became useless from page to page to improve knowledge in Collecting German Helmets and became a "Mr.Ice-and-his-adepts-against-the-World" crusade.

Over and out

 

[Niblet]

I'm afraid I dont understand this "handling" issue,,,,this seems to be the biggest argument when I comment on
camos,,I get the immediate "how many camos do you own" or "how many have you handled" question?
the answer to both is ZERO.

I have not owned or handled a "Rounder" Knights Cross either,,but from looking at books, forums and hundreds of photos
I can now distinguish a "Rounder" Knights cross when I see one,,,and of course the same applies with something as common as dog poop.
I have never handled it (with bare hands at least) but I know that when i see a picture of it, I understand what it is,,,,

the same applies to Camos IMHO,,,the contrived wear, tool marks,,heavy wear to the liner and not the helmet itself,
different levels of corrosion going on around the helmet, lack of wear to certain "high wear" area's etc , lack of even some basic provenance
etc,,,,
all are indicitive of ,,,,artisitic creations,,plain and simple,,it doesnt take somone with above average intelligence to sort it out!!

It does take a REAL MAN to admit that maybe he (and his collegues) have been duped! theres nothing wrong with having been scammed
no shame in admitting that the hobby is going (or already in) the toilet. This is actually a symptomatic problem with society itself really)

guys just cut your losses,,all these posts and yet NOT A SINGLE ONE OF YOU have EVER said WHY a helmet is good,,,What M 45 is doing is
a service he is warning you that there is a literal boatload of high end fakes out there and all you do is scoff,,,I just dont get it