Warrior1354
ax - hole
Jeff your collection never ceases to amaze me.
1918 Mauser Tankgewehr
- Thread starter chrisftk
- Start date
Jeff, thank you for sharing-- that's the kind of thing I hope I stumble on accidentally one day. I've never encountered one in the wild. It makes for a great display in your photos.
I'd be remiss if I didn't say you have a beauty of a rifle as well!
Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
I'd be remiss if I didn't say you have a beauty of a rifle as well!
Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
Kern lists 6 T-Gewehr’s in the a-block. The highest known or recorded in the US (6474/a). His break down of disposition for his trends places 31% in England and 20% in Belgium, more than half the total recorded, - interestingly more are recorded from Germany than the US.
I have never seen one close to the a-block, though a dozen or more are recorded w/o full serial numbers... Highest I have recorded is 8448 which sold at auction in 2008. Interestingly CB’s example (5959) was closes to Chris’s example, though Kern lists 5940 in Germany.
I uploaded a few AEF summaries, including the first encounters mentioned in July 1918. Too many to list them all, but an interesting set regard developing tactics (51st AK) and a brief one on “Tank Forts” being developed, sort of a combined arms defensive position.
** I have seen loose bolts listed at auction (2006, serial not shown) and a couple w/o bolts,
I have never seen one close to the a-block, though a dozen or more are recorded w/o full serial numbers... Highest I have recorded is 8448 which sold at auction in 2008. Interestingly CB’s example (5959) was closes to Chris’s example, though Kern lists 5940 in Germany.
I uploaded a few AEF summaries, including the first encounters mentioned in July 1918. Too many to list them all, but an interesting set regard developing tactics (51st AK) and a brief one on “Tank Forts” being developed, sort of a combined arms defensive position.
** I have seen loose bolts listed at auction (2006, serial not shown) and a couple w/o bolts,
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I know that Kern lists guns in the A-Block, but if we take that 6474a gun at face value, where are the 6,473 before it? You don’t just get gaps of several thousand guns. Either they weren’t made, they were only serial numbered receivers, or they played the greatest disappearing act in firearms history. We have more Pederson devices than we have A block t-gewehrs, and those were literally tossed into a fire and burned. It doesn’t make sense.
I don't have Kern handy, but there were six listed in the a-block, so there is not a 6000 gap, though from recollection there was a significant gap between the high and second runner up, but far less than 6000 rifles.
As for the great disappearing act, this is not a great mystery or impossibility, for one, new experiments like this have a slow start and speed up as they become standard, it is very possible these late rifles were never issued or utilized, Germany was in a mess long before November and many were still in German hands in 1919, not just at WMO, and these would surely be slated for destruction.
While it is curious that there are gaps late in production, these gaps are not inexplicable or difficult to imagine, and the most likely alternative to this "discrepancy" would be Kern falsifying his trends, which imo is far less likely than the chaos at the end of the war prevented these T-G from getting into positions where the AEF, BEF or French/Belgian Armies could take them... the American high could have been acquired at Koblenz, for it is known that the AEF acquired large numbers of examples for study and as trophies, John Wall or Doss White had a list of this hoard and I think I have a copy, though the inventory probably doesn't include serial numbers, but might give numbers collected.
I will see if I have any article or document that may shed some light on this subject, for when I wrote on this subject a decade ago I collected a considerable amount of material. Since then I was able to acquire books and documents regarding the IAMCC and their inspections, but such a specific subject probably has scant details beyond discoveries and disposition (which in the vast majority of cases the German counterparts took possession and conducted demilitarization under supervision and certified... the IAMCC never inspected independently, they could go anywhere but always accompanied and usually with a police escort...)
As for the great disappearing act, this is not a great mystery or impossibility, for one, new experiments like this have a slow start and speed up as they become standard, it is very possible these late rifles were never issued or utilized, Germany was in a mess long before November and many were still in German hands in 1919, not just at WMO, and these would surely be slated for destruction.
While it is curious that there are gaps late in production, these gaps are not inexplicable or difficult to imagine, and the most likely alternative to this "discrepancy" would be Kern falsifying his trends, which imo is far less likely than the chaos at the end of the war prevented these T-G from getting into positions where the AEF, BEF or French/Belgian Armies could take them... the American high could have been acquired at Koblenz, for it is known that the AEF acquired large numbers of examples for study and as trophies, John Wall or Doss White had a list of this hoard and I think I have a copy, though the inventory probably doesn't include serial numbers, but might give numbers collected.
I will see if I have any article or document that may shed some light on this subject, for when I wrote on this subject a decade ago I collected a considerable amount of material. Since then I was able to acquire books and documents regarding the IAMCC and their inspections, but such a specific subject probably has scant details beyond discoveries and disposition (which in the vast majority of cases the German counterparts took possession and conducted demilitarization under supervision and certified... the IAMCC never inspected independently, they could go anywhere but always accompanied and usually with a police escort...)
Fal Grunt
Senior Member
I’m going to make a bit of a side step here concerning this topic and research here in the US. A lot of you guys forget how knowledgeable, driven, and finally, connected you are. I’ll give two examples. A gentleman I know, a friend of the family if you will, has a stunning collection of firearms. I would not be surprised if he had a Tankgewehr or 3 tucked away in his collection. That collection however does not see the light of day. When he dies it will go to his sons and possibly then some of his collection would be seen. But again, they don’t do Internet forums, or social platforms like Instagram and the like. Unless they sell one through a major auction house, they’ll never be seen.
My uncle just last year, was forced to discover the internet. Yes, you read that correctly, in 2019. He didn’t know how to send an email, or what a search engine was. Never needed to, never wanted to. Knew it existed, but never saw the use for it.
So my point is two fold. First, the majority, the vast majority, of guns and gun owners are not active participants on the internet. Second, the majority of guns never see the internet. The vast majority of people I know, 99%, buy their guns cash in hand. Only a few of the big local auctions houses have implemented any internet portion to their auctions.
Lastly, and along the same lines and again, a majority, of museums I have been to either just to visit or to do research, are not connected to the internet. Some have no internet presence at all.
Back to the topic of Tgewehr, would it make sense that most of the surviving examples were examples that were captured early during the conflict? The rifles remaining it sounds like from Speed were then made up into test rifles. Test rifles have a very low survival rate, both literally, and in terms of collecting.
http://ww3.rediscov.com/springar/VF...detailsF.IDC,SPECIFIC=24155,DATABASE=FILEUNIT,
http://ww3.rediscov.com/spring/VFPC...g/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=9500,DATABASE=31887519,
I might be able to manage a trip to SPAR again next year, if I make it I will see if I can find anything else. They have a MOUNTAIN of documents, none of which are online.
Edited to add: Case and point, traded emails with a gentleman this morning that had never heard of gunboards or k98kforum!
My uncle just last year, was forced to discover the internet. Yes, you read that correctly, in 2019. He didn’t know how to send an email, or what a search engine was. Never needed to, never wanted to. Knew it existed, but never saw the use for it.
So my point is two fold. First, the majority, the vast majority, of guns and gun owners are not active participants on the internet. Second, the majority of guns never see the internet. The vast majority of people I know, 99%, buy their guns cash in hand. Only a few of the big local auctions houses have implemented any internet portion to their auctions.
Lastly, and along the same lines and again, a majority, of museums I have been to either just to visit or to do research, are not connected to the internet. Some have no internet presence at all.
Back to the topic of Tgewehr, would it make sense that most of the surviving examples were examples that were captured early during the conflict? The rifles remaining it sounds like from Speed were then made up into test rifles. Test rifles have a very low survival rate, both literally, and in terms of collecting.
http://ww3.rediscov.com/springar/VF...detailsF.IDC,SPECIFIC=24155,DATABASE=FILEUNIT,
http://ww3.rediscov.com/spring/VFPC...g/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=9500,DATABASE=31887519,
I might be able to manage a trip to SPAR again next year, if I make it I will see if I can find anything else. They have a MOUNTAIN of documents, none of which are online.
Edited to add: Case and point, traded emails with a gentleman this morning that had never heard of gunboards or k98kforum!
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Kerns numbers:
68a
371a
1106a
1278a
4117a
6474a
A 3,000 gap followed by a 2,300 gap. So, absent one gun, there is realistically a 5,300 gun gap, provided that these serial numbers are all accurately reported.
Kern did a lot of research through museum collections, so I don’t have any concerns with his scholarship there.
The idea that early v late survival is different is the reverse of what I would expect to be the case. The allies took mountains of war materials back, the seeming tens of thousands of Maxims in the US for example, and those weapons seem to show higher rates of survival amongst newer guns. I’ve seen no record of 1918s being destroyed en masse, like we have for airplanes and helmets and whatever else. Surely there would be photos of 6,000 of these guns being chopped up.
I think the most likely option is that a large number of actions were made, but never built into guns. If they weren’t serial numbered until completion, then we wouldn’t have a clean run of numbers. That doesn’t explain why the recorded numbers are so random; but it’s an option.
68a
371a
1106a
1278a
4117a
6474a
A 3,000 gap followed by a 2,300 gap. So, absent one gun, there is realistically a 5,300 gun gap, provided that these serial numbers are all accurately reported.
Kern did a lot of research through museum collections, so I don’t have any concerns with his scholarship there.
The idea that early v late survival is different is the reverse of what I would expect to be the case. The allies took mountains of war materials back, the seeming tens of thousands of Maxims in the US for example, and those weapons seem to show higher rates of survival amongst newer guns. I’ve seen no record of 1918s being destroyed en masse, like we have for airplanes and helmets and whatever else. Surely there would be photos of 6,000 of these guns being chopped up.
I think the most likely option is that a large number of actions were made, but never built into guns. If they weren’t serial numbered until completion, then we wouldn’t have a clean run of numbers. That doesn’t explain why the recorded numbers are so random; but it’s an option.
Fal Grunt
Senior Member
It wouldn't make sense for Kern to be documenting serial numbers of actions that were built into gauges for testing either....
just thinking aloud.
The guns he recorded seem to have been complete guns, not actions. I’d be curious to see the barrel markings on these late guns.
Fal Grunt
Senior Member
Hmmm.... I would say test actions would explain the holes in the recorded samples, but even if every ammunition and gun company related bought several.... that would only account for a few hundred.
Attrition, loss due to age/damage/etc could account for a decent sample, but that doesn't explain why we don't see in "a" rifles in the states.
I still think it has something to do with the timing/relationship of what was in the field at the end of WWI.
Springfield Armory has an enormous amount of materials that were sent back from WWI up to the 1920's. What I have seen however, most of it was taken from the field, field depot's, etc. If up till November 1918 they had only fielded approximately 8000 rifles then it would make sense why we see up to that number in the US. Conversely it doesn't make sense that there were 8,000 rifles in various stages of completion at that point in Germany.
Fal Grunt
Senior Member
The front line wasn’t that far from the factory, nor far enough to explain away the fact that 40% of production (6,000 out of 16,000) never made it to front line troops for capture. They weren’t being shipped from China, but from Germany to France. It also wouldn’t make sense that 6,000 guns would be sitting in storage. 1918 was a pretty active year combat wise, with everyone trying new strategies and the war picking up in terms of mobility. The guns would’ve been needed at the front.
I stand by my theory that the guns don’t exist. There are too many holes to explain it away.
I stand by my theory that the guns don’t exist. There are too many holes to explain it away.
mauser1908
Senior Member
Awesome Jeff! I’ve always wondered how many of those cartridge pouches survived.
sprat
Senior Member
I found this thread particularly educational,
so I dived deeper, the round is very interesting and its similarity to .50 cal mg ammo,
thought I saw few shops in the EU had demilled/inert 13mm rounds. Wonder what the base difference and neck /shoulder compared to a .50 cal round, the throat would have to be opened a bit.
must be significant difference as they rebarreled one to .50cal or they rebarreled it because .50 cal a few years back was cheap.!!!!!!!!
great thread
so I dived deeper, the round is very interesting and its similarity to .50 cal mg ammo,
thought I saw few shops in the EU had demilled/inert 13mm rounds. Wonder what the base difference and neck /shoulder compared to a .50 cal round, the throat would have to be opened a bit.
must be significant difference as they rebarreled one to .50cal or they rebarreled it because .50 cal a few years back was cheap.!!!!!!!!
great thread
Fal Grunt
Senior Member
Forgot to post this earlier.
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/85968770
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/85968772
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/25011
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/85968770
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/85968772
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/25011
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One major reason some were rebarreled was that it originally was classified under "destructive devices" due to its caliber greater than .50. They were later specifically excluded from the NFA list due to their collectibility and the scarcity of ammo. They are now no different than any other C&R bolt action.
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Flying Dutchman
Member
Tankgewehr
Great thread. I am Bas Martens from the Netherlands and I make an arms magazine for which I am preparing an article on the T-Gewehr. I can offer some information and have some questions.
- Serial number 6500a is in the collection of the military museum in Prague, with great provenance and marked '1918' instead of Mauser. I believe all the a-suffix guns have '1918'. Anyone knows other serial numbers without the word Mauser?
- The preliminary manual states that the T-Gewehr can be used with three mounts: MG bipods (which are supplied with every rifle), MG-tripod 16, or 'Hilfslafette' for the MG 08. Anyone ever seen a picture of a T-Gewehr on a tripod?
- Neither this manual, nor any other contemporary source refers to a Kurz version - which makes sense if a Lang version did not exist Anyone ever seen mention of these before Kern's book?
Great thread. I am Bas Martens from the Netherlands and I make an arms magazine for which I am preparing an article on the T-Gewehr. I can offer some information and have some questions.
- Serial number 6500a is in the collection of the military museum in Prague, with great provenance and marked '1918' instead of Mauser. I believe all the a-suffix guns have '1918'. Anyone knows other serial numbers without the word Mauser?
- The preliminary manual states that the T-Gewehr can be used with three mounts: MG bipods (which are supplied with every rifle), MG-tripod 16, or 'Hilfslafette' for the MG 08. Anyone ever seen a picture of a T-Gewehr on a tripod?
- Neither this manual, nor any other contemporary source refers to a Kurz version - which makes sense if a Lang version did not exist Anyone ever seen mention of these before Kern's book?