45sgx

[Slash]

Current research and data collection has confirmed only two makers of S84/98 bayonets into 1945. Although rare, multiple examples by both Paul Weyersberg (crs) and E & F Hörster (sgx) have been recorded. By the serial numbers observed it is unlikely that either firm produced more than 10,000 pieces. Attached below are photographs of my 45sgx bayonet. The bayonet's construction is essentially the same as the late 1944 production. Gray phosphate finish, riveted red phenolic grip scales, etc. The serial number on this piece is 8627 (no letter block) which is deeply stamped to the obverse ricasso. The reverse is stamped 45sgx. Although unmarked, the gray phosphate scabbard is very late Hörster production. Note the extremely crude weld seam and rough grind marks to the side of the scabbard. As observed on other very late scabbards the ball finial does not bear a WaA acceptance stamping. The finish to both the scabbard and bayonet is light and there is darkening and some patina. The blade is factory rough and shows very little machine finishing. It has not been sharpened. The hilt fittings, pommel, and crossguard also lack machine finishing and there are rough grind marks and edges throughout. The late war grip scales are red in color and exhibit wood chips and other filler mixed into the phenolic material. The rivets and flashguard are phosphate. There is a faint stick wing eagle WaA519 to the reverse upper pommel. There does not appear to be a WaA stamped below the rifle mortice slot at the top edge of the flashguard. Probably the centerpiece of all my bayonets if not the entire late war and Volkssturm collection. Numerous pics attached to show detail.

 

[Slash]

Thanks for looking. Hope that you enjoy the pics!

 

[RyanE]

Ugly! I like it.

You have to wonder why we don't see more of these. They were almost certainly captured in the factories (this one looks unfinished) or nearby depots. Production had to be very small, but I doubt that many (or even any) made it very far before the end.

I suppose one possibility is that 1945 production consisted of largely 44 dated blades (similar to bcd production) with serial numbers simply continuing into 1945...

 

[Loewe]

Very nice, this is the highest I have recorded, - is this the highest known? Where do the unserialed fit in the scheme of production? I assume at the last?

 

[grimlin13]

Thanks for sharing pictures of your diamond in the rough, it would be the jewel in anyones collection.
grimlin13

 

[Slash]

Very nice, this is the highest I have recorded, - is this the highest known? Where do the unserialed fit in the scheme of production? I assume at the last?

Thanks for the kind words guys!


Loewe et al,

This is the second highest serial number confirmed for 45sgx. I checked my data base and also double checked with Andrej (AndyB) to confirm that information as correct. The highest recorded number is 9317 which is photographed in the second edition of German Sidearms and Bayonets 1740 - 1945, By Klaus Lubbe. There are also other examples with unmarked scabbards starting in the 4000 range spread through the confirmed serial numbers. Interestingly enough, there is only one reported example with matching scabbard which is in the early 1000 serial range. Although reportedly owned by a well known researcher and collector to my knowledge this sole matching piece has never been displayed or photographed for review.

 

[Loewe]

Thanks for the insight, - didn't that French collectors website have a sgx/45 (7558) scabbard? I have to say, I do not have many sgx/45 recorded, only 9 altogether, not many with matching bards to know whether they were serialed. Of course several are no serial bayonets too. I never owned a sgx bayonet, I did have a sgx/44 bard before though.

 

[RyanE]

There is a (somewhat unreliable) report of an unnumbered 45sgx blade in 45sgx scabbard 5333. No pics.

 

[Slash]

Thanks for the insight, - didn't that French collectors website have a sgx/45 (7558) scabbard? I have to say, I do not have many sgx/45 recorded, only 9 altogether, not many with matching bards to know whether they were serialed. Of course several are no serial bayonets too. I never owned a sgx bayonet, I did have a sgx/44 bard before though.

Originally posted by RyanE
There is a (somewhat unreliable) report of an unnumbered 45sgx blade in 45sgx scabbard 5333. No pics.

Loewe,

You are most welcome. Yes, 45sgx scabbard 7558 is recorded and confirmed. You are correct that there are not really enough confirmed examples to make conclusions from. Hopefully more pieces will show up over time.


RyanE,

Thanks for the information. As Loewe advised above there are confirmed 45sgx bayonets without serial numbers. I did not have scabbard 5333 in the data base. Will include as reported but unconfirmed. Thanks again ......

 

[Loewe]

I just noticed one of the NS sgx/45 I recorded has a sgx/45 serial 8300 scabbard, it was a Gunboards 4/25/2006 discussion, and your friend Andy posted to the thread, so I assume you BCN guys have it already. The pair looked pretty period (mated) but for whatever reason I have not seen many sgx/45 with both the bayonet and scabbard serial matching.

 

[Slash]

I just noticed one of the NS sgx/45 I recorded has a sgx/45 serial 8300 scabbard, it was a Gunboards 4/25/2006 discussion, and your friend Andy posted to the thread, so I assume you BCN guys have it already. The pair looked pretty period (mated) but for whatever reason I have not seen many sgx/45 with both the bayonet and scabbard serial matching.

Yes Sir, the 8300 scabbard is recorded and confirmed. The bayonet is 45sgx and does not have a serial number but appears to be stamped with letter block a. Another interesting observation. This "set" came out of France and the owner thinks they have always been together. You are absolutely correct about the extreme rarity of matched serial number 45sgx - only one recorded and it has not been confirmed.

Oh, there are lots of people who claim to own one or know someone that does but ...... somehow they just never show up for anyone to get a look at. Hmmnn ..... And that would include the guy at the SoS three years ago who in all seriousness said that he had two matching ones at home. I'm still waiting for the email pics on those. And others as well .....

 

[Loewe]

Have you seen serial 1222, what is your opinion of it? It is chromed and not very desirable but it seems to have matched serialing?

 

[Slash]

Have you seen serial 1222, what is your opinion of it? It is chromed and not very desirable but it seems to have matched serialing?

I have never seen photographs of this piece but this is the only know matching example reported. Would like to see pics.

 

[Loewe]

Sure, these are not mine, lifted them off a site or auction but didn't keep any details (dated October 9, 2007)

I have never seen photographs of this piece but this is the only know matching example reported. Would like to see pics.

 

[Slash]

Thanks for the pics Loewe. My first thought is "of all the bayonets in the world that someone chose to chrome?" Interesting and somewhat troubling set of pics. If we examine each one:

#1) - Looks goods as far as the reverse view of the scabbard throat and bayonet ricasso. The stamping style and font is consistent with late Hörster pieces. To include the slightly larger in size font to the scabbard.

#2) - An obverse view shot of the above to show the serial number information. I have no problems with these markings. Again, the font and style of the digits are consistent with Hörster. In this case the serial number font on the blade is slightly larger than the scabbard's. This is fine.

#3) - Reverse upper pommel with single stick wing eagle WaA519. This is what we would expect to see on any Hörster piece after roughly the middle of 1944. The final double acceptance stamp at the reverse pommel was eliminated at that time. The 43/44asw matching pieces with 1943 blades also bear only a single WaA at that location which helps us date the acceptance and issuance of those bayonets. Occasionally a late example is noted that does not have any WaA at that location.

#4) - This is the photo that I do not like. The bayonet looks okay and the serial number is clear enough to read as 1222. But the scabbard? Is it just me or does anyone else see a serial number on the scabbard that is NOT 1222? Not the best pic and does not improve a great deal even with magnification. To me the scabbard serial number appears to be 1124? The third digit is very hard to make out so the 2 is mainly a SWAG. Although the last digit trails off a bit lower like the last 2 in the closer (second) photo it looks nothing like a 2 to me. I think it is a 4. The second digit is the most distinct of the suspect numerals and is clearly a 1 in my opinion as is the first. So what kind of monkey business do we have here? Was the second photograph "photo shopped"? Does the owner have two chromed scabbards and included the wrong one in photograph #4? Or am I just seeing things? Very strange.

I made a couple of attempts at enlarging the image, cropping, and increasing the resolution, contrast, and sharpness. Wasn't able to do much as the detail wash-out increased when enlarged. They are attached below for what they are worth. I hope that others can take a look and weigh in with their thoughts on photo #4. Perhaps it's just me and my failing eyes. My thoughts only ......

 

[AndyB]

Hello from comparation of the piece fonts of digits to late 44sgx it looks ok to me, problem is the digits looks other on rough finnish like on a polished surface.certainly a damaged piece, but in this case probably no way made it back, and 45sgx is too rare.

 

[Loewe]

#4, yes I see what you are saying, I never noticed this apparent discrepancy, but I am sure it is just an optical illusion based upon a low resolution picture. Wish I had saved the context of this set of pictures, might have been ebay or a forum, but I do not remember as it has been several years.

I thought it good too but wasn't sure, there is a lot of incentive for fraud with 1945 dated bayonets, matching up a scabbard can mean hundreds of dollars, though considering it has been seriously impaired by the chrome plating, I guess value would really depend on the buyer. I mean, even such a rare bayonet wouldn't appeal to everyone. For me, metal finish is probably the single most important thing.

 

[Mr. Dynamite]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but Slash, do you have any story behind how you tracked down that 45? Was it a find you made, or just a purchase? Very nice piece!

 

[Slash]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but Slash, do you have any story behind how you tracked down that 45? Was it a find you made, or just a purchase? Very nice piece!

Thanks for your kind words regarding this bayonet. I purchased this piece nearly 10 years ago after a collecting friend heard rumor of its "appearance" in Sweden. It was in the hands of a gentleman there who was not a military dealer or even a collector. By the time I was able to make contact with the owner he was more than aware of the potential value. I did ask how he had acquired the bayonet.

According to the owner he had been given the bayonet many years prior by a friend who had acquired same in Denmark. The bayonet and been discovered in a small cache of items hidden in the attic of an older home. According to the gentleman's friend, there was another bayonet set in the grouping as well as other field gear items although he claimed to have never seen them. I'm not much of a "story" guy but the person that found the items was convinced they came from German troops evacuated/fleeing from East Prussia late in the war. Beginning in late January and continuing through April 1945 during "Operation Hannibal" the Kriegsmarine evacuated nearly a million citizens and approximately 350,000 service members from Courland, East Prussia, and the Polish Corridor across the Baltic to Occupied Denmark. The finder postulated that these items came from one of those soldiers, perhaps even from someone who hid the items and deserted.

Again, I have always felt that the best original items do not require a "story." They simply speak for themselves. That said, it is always interesting to hear the verbal history for these collectables. The theory does seem plausible and fits with the supply of materials to the Eastern Front and how the piece might have ultimately found its way to Sweden. Without a doubt (in my opinion anyway) the gentleman who had the piece was convinced that is how the bayonet came into his possession. Based on a handful of less than highly detailed pics and the information above we haggled a bit but were able to agree on a price. He gave me a street address and asked for payment by international money order sent regular mail. I complied and must admit waited with bated breath for this thing to arrive. Was very happy however when it did and it is essentially untouched. There were only a couple of small surface corrosion spots to the pommel, flashguard, and scabbard that were carefully removed and i just wiped it down and applied a bit of light gun oil.

I feel very fortunate to have this piece in my collection. Thanks again for your interest ......

 

[jack944]

Good post to learn

I am not a bayonet guy...I think I need to reconsider....Slash thank you for sharing your obvious extensive knowledge. The collector community could use a good German bayonet book.