Is the whole matching serial number thing overblown?

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DukeIronHand

Senior Member
Obviously this is just for your opinion as beauty is in the “eye of the beholder” but people drive market prices.
And I guess the opinion sought is in the thread title.
Long time collector of US military guns but relatively new to the K98 scene. Of course I have read and dabbled for decades in K98 lore but just became real K98 serious about 18 months ago.

My impression: When collecting or getting American WW2 guns while all parts from the same manufacturer is “cute” ultimately no one really seems to care. Guns and parts were made by numerous manufacturers and all designed to be interchangeable. One part breaks and another is grabbed. Some may have a preference for a certain company name but it doesn’t appear to be some kind of odd obsession. These are war guns with a varied and storied history for 75 years.

In the K98 world (and I have been reading heavy here for a long while) one is left with the impression that if your K98 is not all matching in all things it is almost a garbage gun and unworthy. It all almost comes across as a form of “Mauser snobbery” to the unwashed. This in turn drives everything in the market it seems from outrageous pricing to blatant counterfeiting attempts for cash and weird internet status so one can charge double or triple price “cuz it matches.” For example there’s a thousand legitimate (and wartime) reasons a gun can have a “mismatched” stock yet those here with one are almost pitied and left with a “Oh you poor peasant. What trash bin did you dig that up from?” If you think I’m off-base here look at the number of old low count posters who come here proudly showing their K98 purchase from Uncle Bob or a LGS, are all excited for info and instead of being given some history are practically laughed at and then never heard from again.

So I wonder. To me every gun has a story and rich history - some more interesting then others of course. Am I the only one who thinks the “all matching obsession” is overblown and proving detrimental to the hobby or do I need more coffee? Sure it’s a preference but does it deserve its own altar?
 
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An interesting take on an old question, but the simple answer - no, it isn't overblown.

Comparing WW2 US to WW2 German rifles is impossible. First, we won the war and all of our service rifles remained in service. After WW2 many were totally disassembled and refurbished. On the other hand, many WW2 German rifles were frozen in time, captured intact and in service condition.

US rifles, as you state, have no serial numbers to match up, just maker codes/drawing numbers. If it wasn't so important to them, why are there tables of dealers at shows with millions of small parts divided up by drawing number and maker? Because it is important and people piece them back together to obtain the elusive "as manufactured" status. Books on Garands are painstakingly detailed as to parts and ranges, etc.

German rifles were numbered, and the majority of them in service were kept that way. So, the original issue rifle has matching numbers, which was important to the Germans. They didn't generally have mismatched guns with swapped stocks, those that did receive depot repairs where parts were swapped, also were renumbered and depot marked to ensure the serviceability. Guys in the field weren't allowed to dump parts in a bucket for cleaning and reassemble their rifles with whatever they pulled out, as was GI doctrine. There aren't a million legitimate wartime reasons for mismatched parts. A few, yes, but its impossible to know a WW2 stock swap with an ebay stock found to restore a sporter - that matters.

So I say again, yes, matching and original matters. Its how the GI's captured them for the most part, and the value in that is similar to an unmolested LS6 454 Chevelle with the matching engine, or the Queen Anne Hutch with original finish. The idea of "original" is not unique to K98k rifles - have you ever priced an untouched (meaning not rebuilt or refurbished) 1942 M1 Garand? Compare that to your typical bitser.
 
American Collectors care too, but the problem is it is harder to tell with American Firearms and it is more accepted to "correct them". For instance a mixmaster Garand will not be as valuable as a corrected one that has all the right parts for that time period and manufacturer.

With Mausers there is often only one correct part. Especially if the part has full serial and letter block on it, or maybe 20 if just the full serial without the letter block, or even 2,000 if just the last 2 numbers.

With American Rifles there are often millions of "correct" parts, and there is a premium being paid for certain parts. Parts are swapped around and now the rifle is called "correct" and sells for quite a large premium. Model 1917 rifles people will swap around E, R, and W parts and call it correct and others will pay a premium.

In my opinion yes there is humping of numbers with Mausers and that does artificially increase the value of them for some, but it is not accepted by most and groups like this forum call out the fakery. Whereas American Collectors encourage it. Then you have Finn Collectors that deny it exists, and now fakes and being compared to fakes.

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capt14k said:
Just in the last couple months I added some Garands to my collection. I had just the post war SA for awhile. Now Wartime SA and HRA. Just last night I won an IHC, and immediately bought a correct IHC cartouched stock for it and IHC elevation pinion knob. Now it too is "corrected" like the others. How much of a premium will American Collectors pay for them? Especially IHC now in a correct DAS cartouched stock with LMR barrel and all other parts correct? It was a lot easier to find the correct parts for all of them.

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Well this is an interesting example in the difference between the two collection types:
1) No collector of American weapons (that I know) would bat an eye at what you are doing - in fact you would be congratulated. Value difference? Depends on whose being asked.
2) As a matter of fact there is a huge amount of documentation of American weapons leaving the factory with “mismatched parts.” If Factory A had a surplus of a certain parts thousands of them would be thrown on a truck and overnighted to Factory B where a shortage was limiting production. Real common.
3) While not directly analogous (to some) if you were doing the above to a K98 it would be like flatulation in church and you may be called a dirty word. Mausers didn't leave the factory encased in amber and never touched or shot or repaired afterward. There was this little thing of a war going on. This concept of the “virgin and pure” K98 among some really floors me.

Nice Garands though!
 
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I see the issue. You conflate American manufacturing and German manufacturing during the war, and conflate US doctrine with German doctrine. They are wildly different. The Germans did intermix components from different factories, but Mauser were not mass produced like American weapons and fitting of each component was required. Bolts will swap, but swapped bolts were renumbered to match. You need to study the German depot repair system.

I can see though, you will never understand and can’t be saved. You seem to have been offended at some point and have built a wall of disdain against Mauser collectors. Good luck in your collecting endeavors, but I can tell this game isn’t for you. Maybe buy yourself a Mitchell’s Mauser and head over to Facebook?


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DukeIronHand said:
..there’s a thousand legitimate (and wartime) reasons a gun can have a “mismatched” stock...
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Here's the thing tho... there's absolutely not. That's ShooterIke or Funshow bullshit. Germans didn't and don't operate that way. That nonsense has been spewed for decades.
 
I think it’s easy to understand, Garand parts weren’t serial numbered so you can change the parts out to make the rifle correct. K98s are easier to prove that they are original as issued as they had all the parts serial numbered. They went through a war and some made their way to the U.S. in their original state which seems impressive to me. If you can prove a Garand is original it also brings a premium , like a Lend Lease or with the Guam or Saipan Garands. I collect both but would never turn my nose up at a mismatched k98, it’s just less valuable than a matched one.
 
mrfarb said:
I see the issue. You conflate American manufacturing and German manufacturing during the war, and conflate US doctrine with German doctrine. They are wildly different. The Germans did intermix components from different factories, but Mauser were not mass produced like American weapons and fitting of each component was required. Bolts will swap, but swapped bolts were renumbered to match. You need to study the German depot repair system.

I can see though, you will never understand and can’t be saved. You seem to have been offended at some point and have built a wall of disdain against Mauser collectors. Good luck in your collecting endeavors, but I can tell this game isn’t for you. Maybe buy yourself a Mitchell’s Mauser and head over to Facebook?


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Uh wow. Okay. Guess I’m done here.
 
DukeIronHand said:
..old low count posters who come here proudly showing their K98 purchase from Uncle Bob or a LGS, are all excited for info and instead of being given some history are practically laughed at and then never heard from again.
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Did it ever happen?? Yup. Will it ever happen again. Most certainly. However painting how we treat proud new owners with that brush is a blatant lie. Most if not all of the mockery is aimed squarely at individuals with an ounce of (bad) knowledge arguing against decades of serious research and cataloging. It's akin to you telling an astrophysicist the world is flat and he's an idiot.

Also a LOT of that butthurt is from the "validate my fake" crowd. When it doesn't happen we get the "those guys are assholes"
 
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DukeIronHand said:
And I guess the opinion sought is in the thread title...the “all matching obsession” is overblown and proving detrimental to the hobby...
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"All matching", at least when referring to military arms made in the Old World, establishes that the piece is as it left the factory. Since the value of any collectable is determined by how close it is to original factory condition, yes -- matching numbers matter.

This is a non-issue with U.S. martial weapons however, at least with those made in the last 100 years or so. Ions ago, when European manufacturers toured Colonel Colt's plant, they were amazed that people in the assembly area didn't have a pile of gages and files in front of them. The parts interchanged -- there was no need for individual hand fitting at assembly, or the subsequent numbering of those parts to insure they remained with the weapon that they were fitted to. Manufacturing via a system of gages and in-process inspection came to be known in Europe as "the American system". It took European manufacturers quite awhile to perfect a similar system.

As for guys who hunt the show tables in an effort to put "all Winchester" parts into their Winchester M1 Carbine, their gun was probably closer to original when it had parts from different manufacturers.

Richie
 
Caesar1 said:
I think it’s easy to understand, Garand parts weren’t serial numbered so you can change the parts out to make the rifle correct. K98s are easier to prove that they are original as issued as they had all the parts serial numbered. They went through a war and some made their way to the U.S. in their original state which seems impressive to me. If you can prove a Garand is original it also brings a premium , like a Lend Lease or with the Guam or Saipan Garands. I collect both but would never turn my nose up at a mismatched k98, it’s just less valuable than a matched one.
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Agree completely. From a collectability standpoint, originality is critical when determining value in almost any “old” or historical thing, as Mike’s described. I personally have no problem with a mismatched rifle, and use one for shooting regularly. Most on this forum would never shun a new member with a mismatched rifle, nor laugh them off the stage as it were, however advice would be freely given regarding its practical value if asked. We all started somewhere!

Cheers,
Brandon
 
2 of my 3 98’s are matching rifles, 2 of them were used in some capacity, with my BNZ 45 really not showing any serious signs of carry and usage during the last months of the war. Still “matching down to the screws”. My CE 43 is an example of one of those few situations where a stock was swapped. In my case, we came to the conclusion in my thread that the unserialized safety and unserialized WaA 359 stock were armory replacement. The handgaurd matches and the patina is completely consistent which added to this conclusion. All that being said, I didn’t hear anyone say anything negative about that rifle, on the contrary, people including myself find it pretty cool, it spawned a new interest in the armory/depot system for me.
 
Just to explain my curt explanation, I’ve seen this thread dozens of times. Once someone has this attitude you will never convince them to change their mind. I’m simply cutting to the quick and saving us all a bunch of effort. The OP has a negative view of Mauser collectors, probably had it when he came here. Usually stems from buying a mismatched gun or project gun and then being upset nobody has passion about it like he feels is warranted. Maybe not the exact case but it’s usually predicated by some similar event. He’ll either eventually come around and understand Mauser collecting or will forever talk bad about them to his usgi collector friends.


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To the OP, I think you're comments about the guys here laughing at newcomers posting mismatched guns is off target. I have not seen that. I have seen rifles posted and opinions given.

Also, few of us here look down on mismatched rifles, we just look down on Bubba rifles, fakes, heavily sanded, lacquered , etc. A mismatched rifle can still be a desirable rifle to own. An all matching rifle is the goal however. The Germans made them that way, simple as that.
 
sombra said:
An all matching rifle is the goal however.
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Let's take the rifle just recently presented for opinion. Heavy usage is really obvious and it saw nearly 7 years of warfare is SOME capacity yet it still survives to this day 'matching to the screws' as we say. IF that wasn't 'a thing' in the Wehrmacht how is that even possible? All that side noise is an attempt to paint mismatched rifles as some how 'just as good' as an all-matching example usually because they own one or more of them. Will they still work? Of course and can be owned and enjoyed for what they are. FWIW, even with the metal condition I'd take that rifle over 5 Mitchells Mausers or any of the faked up frauds that float up on Gunbonker.
 
Matiching partsb

A all matched rifle is how it left the factory and , unless it has been fooled with, is generally safe to shoot. A mismatch rifle you do not know. People say they are shooters. That may or not be true. Is the headspace correct? Is the firing pin protrusion correct? Is the sear engagement correct? Does the safety hold? These have to be checked before you shoot it. Some say it is just a wall hanger. So you have a chunk of wood and metal that does not work. All firearms with matching parts are always worth more because they are in factory condition and in general work as designed. Mismatched mauser c96 broomhandles seldom work hence are worth a fraction of a matched gun. So in my opinion matched guns are more collectible then a gun with a mixture of unproven parts.
 
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