Third Party Press

It started again

It is easier for rifle collectors to believe in the SS connection, since with rifles there are much more SS to be found. Also knowing these rifles helps understanding what the characteristics of original rifles would be, and to transfer this to pistols gives again certain characteristics which one should look out for. This helps to filter the pistols and end up with a handful that share the common aspects.
If one comes from pistols and knows zero on rifles and is confronted with dozens of different DH variations as well as pistol variations, well then actually it isn't much surprising it is overwhelming and you fail to see the common details and determine which could be original. Centuries of faking Luger pistols did make collectors very reluctant. Overall therefore I can understand why it takes them so long to change mind. On the other hand, versus another thread some years earlier, I see much more collectors (on the Luger forums) seemingly to accept the SS origin of these pistols/more people questioning the WWI origin.
 
Absolut said:
It is easier for rifle collectors to believe in the SS connection, since with rifles there are much more SS to be found. Also knowing these rifles helps understanding what the characteristics of original rifles would be, and to transfer this to pistols gives again certain characteristics which one should look out for. This helps to filter the pistols and end up with a handful that share the common aspects.
If one comes from pistols and knows zero on rifles and is confronted with dozens of different DH variations as well as pistol variations, well then actually it isn't much surprising it is overwhelming and you fail to see the common details and determine which could be original. Centuries of faking Luger pistols did make collectors very reluctant. Overall therefore I can understand why it takes them so long to change mind. On the other hand, versus another thread some years earlier, I see much more collectors (on the Luger forums) seemingly to accept the SS origin of these pistols/more people questioning the WWI origin.
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I like the way you describe the situation. The majority of the gentleman on Still’s forum are exclusively pistol collectors. For rifle collectors, it seems obvious there is some similarity between the Gewehr reworks and the DH lugers. It makes sense that they would question the comparisons to rifle variants they know little about.

I was inspired to take collecting seriously by the members on Lugerforums, so I have a soft spot for the guys there. I really don’t appreciate some of the vitriol towards the members of the community - especially that targeted towards some of the authors and historians on Jan’s forum. Both forums have legitimate experts in their respective categories. Just because it can be difficult to break down barriers or communicate across lines doesn’t mean any one is dumb or ignorant. If anything, the bickering will make it even more difficult to fairly debate and properly communicate the well founded beliefs of both parties.
 
@PizzaBert btw what was pretty annoying over there was the discussion with moderator Vlim, to clearly tell him to buy this book and read that chapter, and he specifically acting super dumb and waiting for a screenshot of a book that shows the definite proof that DH stamps are SS. He is an author himself, telling him to read a specific chapter in a specific book should not be a difficult task. The behaviour is not open minded, it is a "NO, unless you give me definite proof with a WWII document" (".. and even if that turns up, I might start questioning that paper, because it could had been faked ...").
But to start again with the positive aspects, it was quite amazing to see how much more acceptance the SS connection has on the Lugerforum versus some two back in this thread --> https://www.lugerforums.com/threads/deaths-head-luger-08.118619/ . Overall, I therefore see changes in the Luger community and I'm positive that one day this will become generally accepted. We'll find out by the increasing prices of the pistols that match all characteristics ;) .
 
I think it is a mistake to characterize the participation of maybe 10 people total, even in multiple threads spanning years on the same subject, as representative of the Luger community in regards to how even a large number of collectors view this topic much less a big majority.
 
I don't think there has been any "vitriol" towards anyone in P08 land. No one is hurling insults or even being uncivil, but there is a lot of frustration.

Several folks have made considerable effort to present data on the SS connection, only for it to be ignored or dismissed out of hand. They only want to look at the P08.
 
RyanE said:
I don't think there has been any "vitriol" towards anyone in P08 land. No one is hurling insults or even being uncivil, but there is a lot of frustration.

Several folks have made considerable effort to present data on the SS connection, only for it to be ignored or dismissed out of hand. They only want to look at the P08.
Click to expand...

Your last sentence is correct. That fact brings me frustration too.
 
Absolut said:
@PizzaBert btw what was pretty annoying over there was the discussion with moderator Vlim, to clearly tell him to buy this book and read that chapter, and he specifically acting super dumb and waiting for a screenshot of a book that shows the definite proof that DH stamps are SS. He is an author himself, telling him to read a specific chapter in a specific book should not be a difficult task. The behaviour is not open minded, it is a "NO, unless you give me definite proof with a WWII document" (".. and even if that turns up, I might start questioning that paper, because it could had been faked ...").
But to start again with the positive aspects, it was quite amazing to see how much more acceptance the SS connection has on the Lugerforum versus some two back in this thread --> https://www.lugerforums.com/threads/deaths-head-luger-08.118619/ . Overall, I therefore see changes in the Luger community and I'm positive that one day this will become generally accepted. We'll find out by the increasing prices of the pistols that match all characteristics ;) .
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I can agree with you there regarding Vlim and your positive outlook on the variant’s future. Part of it may likely be due to the rise in popularity and knowledge of k98k - big thanks to Mr. Karem and Mr. Steves on that one. The section in Volume I is what made me take a look at the P08 DHs and seriously ponder their legitimacy.
 
Philip said:
I think it is a mistake to characterize the participation of maybe 10 people total, even in multiple threads spanning years on the same subject, as representative of the Luger community in regards to how even a large number of collectors view this topic much less a big majority.
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I disagree, respectfully. Those same people are some of the most vocal and apparently some of the most published. That this cohort is steering the car affects any collecting hobby a lot. Look at all the German helmet fakery that was propped up by name dropping “important” collectors and censoring dissent. If it was a few random people with ten posts I would agree more, but not in this situation.
 
After last Sundays fun I had a little time to look at these sites again.

Post nine in this thread is very enlightening.
I have known it all along but you actually admitting it Is a surprise.
RyanE said:
I knew posting what I did would get the thread locked, but I got a chuckle out of it. It's largely a waste of time arguing about it there anyway since markings on P08s and rifles are apparently completely unrelated. Who knew?
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Some extremely entertaining things in that thread BTW.


Something that seems to be missed here is the VAST majority of P.08's are not rebuilt or scrambled parts guns.
Seems to me that is the extreme opposite with these rifles.
Post- production markings on P.08's usually hurt value.
Seems post- production markings on rifles are how to raise value.
Rather important point.

Not going to get into the "SS" jungle as I would not touch any of it.

Post 78 in the closed thread is a classic.
To those that think those are the same EXACT stamp it is probably a good idea to stay away from high end coins .

This stuff is entry level amateur stuff compared to that.
Simple fact- more money = better fakes.

To anyone interested in being the next superstar a suggestion.
Look into the Sempert and Krieghoff commercial- sporting arms products from the same time frame as the HK P.08's.
Who do you think sold the commercial P.08's?
That they were involved in finishing the raw parts into guns all along is un- deniable.
Some very interesting wartime examples with receipts out there.


Attempted to load a pic of last Sundays fun but it was rejected. Oh well .
 
The author of the document, Klaus Schad, has posted a rebuttal of sorts over on the other forum. Unfortunately, the mods locked it down again immediately to prevent any discussion. Since I am called out by name, I figured I might as well address his reply here.

The most disappointing thing in all of this is the flat refusal to even attempt to grapple with the 1930s K98k spare barrels found with infinity/DH markings. I think I have explained at least a half a dozen times that Freikorps Flamethrower markings can not be applied to a barrel before it is machined into existence, but I might as well have been explaining this to my cat for all the good it does. They deliberately choose not to understand the barrel markings, and they will invent fairy tales about old Freikorps armorers and flamethrowers rather than face facts. This doesn't make much sense until you realize they just don't want these to be SS.

His 1917 EWB/DH rifle is obviously bad, and I don't think I really have to say much about it here. Bad DH, wrong commercial markings, etc.

I don't think the memories of old veterans are a terribly useful source unless they were directly involved in depot level work at Dachau, Oranienburg, or one of the other depots. I doubt a company level Waffenmeister in the SSLAH would know or care about SS depot acceptance markings. A trooper would care even less than he did.

My comments in the thread about the SS documents presented and what they show and do not show speak for themselves. Some archivist saying he has never seen some piece of paper is not proof of anything either.
 
One thing that was left unanswered by the supporters of flamethrower origin is why was commercial proofing applied to pistols? If it was simply the addition of a unit mark, there would be no reason to reproof the pistol. Yes?
 
PizzaBert said:
One thing that was left unanswered by the supporters of flamethrower origin is why was commercial proofing applied to pistols? If it was simply the addition of a unit mark, there would be no reason to reproof the pistol. Yes?
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The claim in the past has been they were sold commercially sometime later. Obviously, this doesn't really hold up under scrutiny, but that's the only explanation I have ever seen. Mr. Schad does not even address it.

Similar problem with the Freikorps. Are we really to believe that short lived Freikorps were shipping guns off to Suhl or Zella-Mehlis for proof testing in 1919? Really?
 
PizzaBert said:
One thing that was left unanswered by the supporters of flamethrower origin is why was commercial proofing applied to pistols? If it was simply the addition of a unit mark, there would be no reason to reproof the pistol. Yes?
Click to expand...
The "problem" is that you are a step ahead in that you only look at the pistols with commercial proof stamps, whereas the other side looks at all pistols with DH stamp.

What was brought up in the thread IMHO is though a very good point. There are no proofs (in form of period documents) to the Police acceptance stamps as well, might well be since they applied those themselves. Since the Police basically ended up with the SS this can also be considered likely for the SS. Common for Police guns is also the commercial firing proof.
 
Something else missed here is the fact many have considered these "DH" reworks to be "SS" all along.
These are not a recent discovery.

Why condemn all over opinions of a few?????

Wouldn't front line personnel be more likely to have new weapons issued to them?
Is it possible these rebuilds were issued to non- front-line personnel?
Would concentration camp guards or " Einstaatz Gruppen " personnel not be a more likely place for these rebuilds?
When did "Dachau" open?

I have no dog in this fight as I do not collect anything with post- production markings.
As I already noted the VAST majority of P.08's are as issued.
A major flaw in comparing them to these rifles.

Philip said:
I think it is a mistake to characterize the participation of maybe 10 people total, even in multiple threads spanning years on the same subject, as representative of the Luger community in regards to how even a large number of collectors view this topic much less a big majority.
Click to expand...
 
1933 FORD NUT said:
Something else missed here is the fact many have considered these "DH" reworks to be "SS" all along.
These are not a recent discovery.

Why condemn all over opinions of a few?????

Wouldn't front line personnel be more likely to have new weapons issued to them?
Is it possible these rebuilds were issued to non- front-line personnel?
Would concentration camp guards or " Einstaatz Gruppen " personnel not be a more likely place for these rebuilds?
When did "Dachau" open?

I have no dog in this fight as I do not collect anything with post- production markings.
As I already noted the VAST majority of P.08's are as issued.
A major flaw in comparing them to these rifles.
Click to expand...
A few points to the comments above, not necessarily in order:
1. Of course Lugers and rifles are different but both being classified as small arms they were subject to the same authority and general procedures for procurement and maintenance. A good example is to look at the U.S. procedure of re-building 1911s, M1 rifles and carbines and “03s”, all basically the same. This is true for about every country that I can think of.
2. Post production markings and modifications may bother some and that is fine with me. I personally put a premium on unit property marks for instance so that leaves more for me. Most if not all US WWII sniper rifles were so configured after they left the factory so again the fewer interested in those for that reason the better. A lot, probably tens of thousands of Lugers were post production modified by the German police. So while Lugers were not as extensively re-worked as rifles (particularly WWI era G98s) there were many many thousands modified by the police, navy and even the army in addition to the SS.
3. Lastly, virtually all if not all of the SS re-work Lugers and probably rifles were so reworked prior to 1941 (or in 1941 latest) with most clearly having been modified during the later 1930s. The reason is simply that this is because during that period these older Lugers and G98s is what they had and all that they had. The re-work was to make older weapons serviceable. The Waffen-SS was designated by that name in December 1940. At that time they were also brought under the military authority and responsibility of the Wehrmacht high command. Their arms procurement became the responsibility of the Heer. So while not everything changed in one month by January 1941 things did in fact START to change. These older reworked weapons stayed in use until the end of war in various capacities including some front line use as they were very serviceable but after 1940 the new W-SS started receiving for the first time allotments new weapons of every type. The W-SS doubled in size every year after 1940 until 1945 plus rebuilt existing divisions at least once a year and sometimes 3 times in a year.
I believe that there were probably thousands of imperial Lugers and 98m rifles used by the SS that were never re-worked and have markings specifically SS related on them.
The problem with understanding the deathhead marked Lugers and to some degree deathhead marked rifles and deathhead SS contracted equipment is that many (not directed at the poster here) do not understand the evolution of the SS especially during the 1930s-1940. It was a very different military force by mid 1941 and every year thereafter.
 
Well aware of the Allgemeine - Waffen SS not being the same.
Should correct the above-mentioned name of those wonderful humanitarians to " Einsatzgruppen ".

As stated, I have zero interest in post- production marked or reworked- rebuilt or parts guns.
Seems these rifle folks have MANY in that category.
Police guns aside I do not agree on rebuilds being common in WW2 P.08 land.
Vast majority of WW2 P.08s are as issued IMHO.
Also have zero interest in anything to do with the 'SS".
You can have my share of the above.

Have seen 1937 referenced numerous times by the new "experts' as the likely time frame for these "DH' guns.
One of my main points was- is what was the 'SS" up to in 1937?

And again these "DH" marked P.08s have long been called "SS" guns by many.
Hardly new info.
Seems to be some fakes around though.

Philip said:
A few points to the comments above, not necessarily in order:
1. Of course Lugers and rifles are different but both being classified as small arms they were subject to the same authority and general procedures for procurement and maintenance. A good example is to look at the U.S. procedure of re-building 1911s, M1 rifles and carbines and “03s”, all basically the same. This is true for about every country that I can think of.
2. Post production markings and modifications may bother some and that is fine with me. I personally put a premium on unit property marks for instance so that leaves more for me. Most if not all US WWII sniper rifles were so configured after they left the factory so again the fewer interested in those for that reason the better. A lot, probably tens of thousands of Lugers were post production modified by the German police. So while Lugers were not as extensively re-worked as rifles (particularly WWI era G98s) there were many many thousands modified by the police, navy and even the army in addition to the SS.
3. Lastly, virtually all if not all of the SS re-work Lugers and probably rifles were so reworked prior to 1941 (or in 1941 latest) with most clearly having been modified during the later 1930s. The reason is simply that this is because during that period these older Lugers and G98s is what they had and all that they had. The re-work was to make older weapons serviceable. The Waffen-SS was designated by that name in December 1940. At that time they were also brought under the military authority and responsibility of the Wehrmacht high command. Their arms procurement became the responsibility of the Heer. So while not everything changed in one month by January 1941 things did in fact START to change. These older reworked weapons stayed in use until the end of war in various capacities including some front line use as they were very serviceable but after 1940 the new W-SS started receiving for the first time allotments new weapons of every type. The W-SS doubled in size every year after 1940 until 1945 plus rebuilt existing divisions at least once a year and sometimes 3 times in a year.
I believe that there were probably thousands of imperial Lugers and 98m rifles used by the SS that were never re-worked and have markings specifically SS related on them.
The problem with understanding the deathhead marked Lugers and to some degree deathhead marked rifles and deathhead SS contracted equipment is that many (not directed at the poster here) do not understand the evolution of the SS especially during the 1930s-1940. It was a very different military force by mid 1941 and every year thereafter.
Click to expand...
 
1933 FORD NUT said:
Well aware of the Allgemeine - Waffen SS not being the same.
Should correct the above-mentioned name of those wonderful humanitarians to " Einsatzgruppen ".

As stated, I have zero interest in post- production marked or reworked- rebuilt or parts guns.
Seems these rifle folks have MANY in that category.
Police guns aside I do not agree on rebuilds being common in WW2 P.08 land.
Vast majority of WW2 P.08s are as issued IMHO.
Also have zero interest in anything to do with the 'SS".
You can have my share of the above.

Have seen 1937 referenced numerous times by the new "experts' as the likely time frame for these "DH' guns.
One of my main points was- is what was the 'SS" up to in 1937?

And again these "DH" marked P.08s have long been called "SS" guns by many.
Hardly new info.
Seems to be some fakes around though.
Click to expand...
I may be able to answer that and it is an important question.
As noted there was the Allgemeine SS and then at the end of 1940 the Waffen-SS. There were other organizations of the SS during the 1930s and beyond to include the SS security service, the SS head command, the totenkopf verband (SS-TV) and the SS-VT (for disposition troops), these last two formations were slowly developed into military formations starting roughly in late 1934/35 and greatly accelerating during the years thereafter. Added to these was a regimental size formation, the LAH, Hitler’s bodyguard regiment. These formations had reached the size of approximately 4 divisions by mid 1940 (roughly 50-60 thousand soldiers) and had been involved in the Polish and French campaigns in a full military role by then as well. What has to be understood is that up until 1941 they had been virtually completely self armed and equipped with very little material coming from the army and as far as I can find out virtually no new small arms support from the army. Collectors have identified, for many decades, the patterns of rifles carried by these armed SS formations during the later 1930s. Starting with both G98, G98m and some Kar98a. More interesting in the late 1930s unique pattern conversion G98 can be increasingly seen in these photos that show G98 to 98k style conversions with unique band set ups and these are the same rifles found with DH S markings and commercial proofing just like the DH Lugers. Many hundreds of the SS VT, LAH and TV photos from the later 30s well document these and other type of non Wehrmacht issue rifles as well as the Luger being carried in large numbers by these formations. Period documents from both the SS and the Army also make it very clear that the Army was not supplying weapons or equipment to the SS as they considered them a wasteful drain on resources (both manpower and material) and also a political force not up to military task and somewhat of a threat in the sense that the Wehrmacht was the traditional bearer of arms for the state. These are their reasons not mine. This is what the SS was up to in 1937, actually from about 1935-40.
 
Thanks for the replies.
To be clear I have no dog in this fight.
I do know enough about the ' dark side" of the "SS" to know by 1937 their murdering ways were well established.
This is unfortunately not unique in history.
Enough on that subject.

Reason I posted here is these "DH" Lugers are being put forth here as the latest and greatest info when in fact many have considered them "SS" all along.
Seems opinions still have a part in the latest and greatest info on these.

Philip said:
I may be able to answer that and it is an important question.
As noted there was the Allgemeine SS and then at the end of 1940 the Waffen-SS. There were other organizations of the SS during the 1930s and beyond to include the SS security service, the SS head command, the totenkopf verband (SS-TV) and the SS-VT (for disposition troops), these last two formations were slowly developed into military formations starting roughly in late 1934/35 and greatly accelerating during the years thereafter. Added to these was a regimental size formation, the LAH, Hitler’s bodyguard regiment. These formations had reached the size of approximately 4 divisions by mid 1940 (roughly 50-60 thousand soldiers) and had been involved in the Polish and French campaigns in a full military role by then as well. What has to be understood is that up until 1941 they had been virtually completely self armed and equipped with very little material coming from the army and as far as I can find out virtually no new small arms support from the army. Collectors have identified, for many decades, the patterns of rifles carried by these armed SS formations during the later 1930s. Starting with both G98, G98m and some Kar98a. More interesting in the late 1930s unique pattern conversion G98 can be increasingly seen in these photos that show G98 to 98k style conversions with unique band set ups and these are the same rifles found with DH S markings and commercial proofing just like the DH Lugers. Many hundreds of the SS VT, LAH and TV photos from the later 30s well document these and other type of non Wehrmacht issue rifles as well as the Luger being carried in large numbers by these formations. Period documents from both the SS and the Army also make it very clear that the Army was not supplying weapons or equipment to the SS as they considered them a wasteful drain on resources (both manpower and material) and also a political force not up to military task and somewhat of a threat in the sense that the Wehrmacht was the traditional bearer of arms for the state. These are their reasons not mine. This is what the SS was up to in 1937, actually from about 1935-40.
Click to expand...
 
1933 FORD NUT said:
Thanks for the replies.
To be clear I have no dog in this fight.
I do know enough about the ' dark side" of the "SS" to know by 1937 their murdering ways were well established.
This is unfortunately not unique in history.
Enough on that subject.

Reason I posted here is these "DH" Lugers are being put forth here as the latest and greatest info when in fact many have considered them "SS" all along.
Seems opinions still have a part in the latest and greatest info on these.
Click to expand...
Opinions and pattern association is the only way to interpret these markings in the absence of period documentation. Much like the police circle S, we can only hypothesize its meaning on patterns we observe on reported examples.
 
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