Kar.98b Trends

[Loewe]

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Locked until the basic outline is created, will take time as these trends below are far from complete or uniformly recorded.

 

[Loewe]

KAR.98b​

Mark Wieringa states dated ranges (1924-1926) from 371-1200 a

1924

323 - E/6 x3 (SR-Gew.98) N1487 (NBC- Kr* *possible Krupp* FP e/6x3) Dave Davis
371 – E/6 x2 E/14 (SR-Gew.98) Joe Steen & Mark Wieringa reports
890 - E/6 “dove”/5 E/6 (2nd dove acceptance unclear) (SR-Gew.98) (PeterK)
1738 – E/6 E/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) (bolt FP/E6) (sporter-scoped)
6880 - RR-n/a (re-barrel) (out of normal range but 1924 confirmed)

1925

2526 – e/6 x2 e/14 x1 (SRNA)
2632 – RRNA (SR-Gew.98)
2651 – RRNA (SR-Gew.98)
3014 – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR- Gew.98)
3681 – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
4605 – RRNA (SR-Gew.98)
5179 - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
5495 - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
6642 - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
6751 - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
6878 - E/6 E/14 E/14 (w/qualifiers) (SR-Gew.98) (SS re-barrel BC- BSW 219 S) possibly o-block rework
6946 - RRNA (SR-Gew.98)
8770 - RRNA (SR-Gew.98)
8957 - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
9120 - Amoskeag-no data
9625 - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) (Chris)

452 a - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) ScottB-barrel f/p NA
1103 a - e/6 x1(e/6 under) e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
1201 a - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
1237 a - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) barrel f/p next to serial


1926

1219 a – RRNA (SR-Gew.98) f/p next to serial
1517 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) re-barrel

S1 (S Top Receiver)

2212 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) f/p next to serial
1925 Simson 3643 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) f/p next to serial
3827 a – RRNA (SR-Gew.98) receiver only
3852 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-blank) f/p next to serial
40xx a – RRNA (SR-blank) CB report (think serial is 4017 a)
5710 a – e/6 e/? x2 (pitted) (SR-blank) (re-barrel) (bolt BF e/6 / FP / E/6)

S2 (S Right Receiver)

6783 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
6955 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
7035 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
7479 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
7884 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SRNA) CB rifle
7995 a – “h” e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
8188 a – e/6 x1 e/43 x1 e/6 x1 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
8211 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
66 b – e/6 e/? e/6 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
1960 b – e/6 x3 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (barrel m/m)
2239 b – RRNA (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial rc (not sure S2 or S3)
2435 b – e/6 e/6 e/43 (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial

S3 (block S)

3418 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) nazi re-barrel
3430 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b)
3758 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
4531 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) nazi re-barrel
4891 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
5111 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
7659 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
8681 b - RR-n/a (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (re-barrel)
8951 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K18A e/6 x3)
9276 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K63C e/6 x3)- Unit: 1./A.R.3.85. (Muzzle Cover (Simson) 7./A.R.4.42.) (Lance)
3937 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (John Wall)
4241 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
4586 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial rc
4851 c – serial report only
5173 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) barrel NA
5211 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
5765 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K31D e/33 x3 / S)
5790 c - e/6 e/43 e/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (force matched depot bolt) unit: 4/A.R.4.114 (Chris #12)
6118 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (John Wall)
6263 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) Aberdeen PG (Ken Huddle Report)
6388 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) re-barrel
6555 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) re-barrel (K26S re-barrel)
6919 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
8996 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
9067 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
9380 c – RRNA (K 36 B e/33 x3)
9641 c – RRNA (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (unit: R.R.15.35)
9804 c – RRNA (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
1034 d – e/6 x2 e/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K 57 E e/33)
1895 d – e/6 x2 e/33 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K40A e/33 / e/43)
2189 d – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K40B e/33 x43)
2412 d – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
2931 d – e/6 x2 e/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) (nazi re-barrel)
3022 d – e/6 x2 e/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
3196 d – e/6 x2 e/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K42B e/33 x43)
3431 d – e/6 x2 e/? S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
3774 d – E/6 E/43 E/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
4619 d – E/6 E/43 E/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (unit 2./A.R.7.100) (Horacio)
7001 d – e/6 e/46 e/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (John Wall)
8099 d – (SR-Karab.98b)
8384 d – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
8407 d – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
9137 d – FP E/6 E/43 E/6 S (SR-Karab.98b) (BC- K 48 B e/6 e/33)
9292 d – E/6 E/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial Joe Steen
9675 d – e/33 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (sporter)
489 e – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (John Wall)
1054 e – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
2053 e – e/33 e/43 e/33 x1 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
2141 e – e/6 x2 e/33 S (SR-Karab.98b) report
2159 e – e/6 x2 e/43 e/33 S (SR-Karab.98b)
4116 e – serial report
4247 e – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
4413 e – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
5576 e – e/43 x3 S (SR-Gew.98b) f/p next to serial (ScottB)
5864 e – e/43 x3 S (SR-Gew.98b) f/p next to serial (K58D e/43)
5885 e – e/33 e/43 x1 e/46 x1 S (SR-Gew.98b) f/p next to serial
5993 e – e/33 e/46 x2 S (SR-Gew.98b) f/p next to serial (MRJ189)
6006 e – e/33 e/46 x2 S (SR-Gew.98b) f/p next to serial (K50A e/43 e/33 e/43)

S4 (Rune S Right Receiver)

6390 e – e/6 x1 e/46 x2 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
6663 e – e/43 x1 e/46 x1 e/43 x1 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) nazi re-barrel (KCN94)
6867 e – unclear S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)
6943 e – e/6 e/46 e/43 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) John Wall
7792 e – e/6 e/43 e/43 S-Rune
8613 e –acceptance buffed out-faint S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)sporter
9282 e – e/6 e/43 e/43 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) (re-barrel)
900 f – e/33 x1 e/43 x2 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)
980 f – Amoskeag –serial report (SR-Karab.98b)
989 f – e/76 e/43 e/43 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) (FP next serial)
1077 f – e/33 e/43 x2 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)
1123 f – e/76 e/43 e/46 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) John Wall-Peter Kuck
1549 f – e/76 e/43 e/46 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)
1551 f – e/76 e/43 e/46 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)
1646 f – e/76 e/43 e/43 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)
2000 f – e/76 e/43 e/43 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) (barrel e/76)
3265 f – e/43 e/76 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) Hermann Historica Report-sale
3318 f – e/76 e/43 e/46 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) (acceptance blurry- e/43 might be e/46)
3579 f – acceptance blurry S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) Dave Davis
5643 f – e/76 e/46 e/43 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) (K95D e/76 e/6)
6446 f – e/76 e/43 e/46 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) Bob Jensen & Backboner

S5 (Incursive S – Mod.98 Side rail)

6722 f – e/6 (e/6 top), e/43 e/46 “S” (incursive) (SR-Mod.98.) (BC- K96D e/46 / e/6 / e/76)
7536 f – e/6 e/43 x2 “S” (incursive) (SR-Mod.98.) nazi re-barrel
7680 f – e/76 x1 e/43 x2 S-Rune (SR-Mod.98.) Bob Jensen
7773 f - E/81 E/43 x2, “S” (incursive) (SR-Mod.98.) (BC - K100B, E/81x3, E/6)(bolt BF E/81)(AN-94)
7803 f – Joe Steen barrel report
8499 f – E/81 E/43 x2 “S” (incursive) (SR-Mod.98)
8758 f – RR-NA (SR-Mod.98)
8910 f – e/81 (e/6 top), e/43 e/43 “S” (incursive) (SR-Mod.98)
9482 f – e/81 e/67 e/6 “S” (incursive) (SR-Mod.98.)




S1= S top receiver
S2= “S” RR
S3= “Block S” RR (2 styles, earlier with more curves)
S4= “Rune S” RR
S5= incursive “S” - Mod.98. siderails (Mod.98 designation est. September 1930- these rifle are post Sept. 1930 prod.)

 

[Loewe]

S28​

1917/1920 WOK 5777 n – S28 traits
1918/1920 CG Haenel 5845 a – S28 traits
1918/1920 DWM 2042 – S28 traits
1918/1920 DWM 2807 – S28 traits
1918/1920 DWM 3125 – S28 traits
1918/1920 DWM 3478 – S28 traits (Chris)
1918/1920 DWM 5191 – S28 traits
1918/1920 DWM 6704 – S28 traits
1918/1920 DWM 7185 a – S28 traits
1919/1920 DWM 2538 – S28 traits
1919/1920 DWM 2805 – S28 traits

9300 - (report Joe Steen Oct/97)
9358 - C/O x3 with qualifiers -(Erfurt style f/p b/r)(S28 bolt)
9556 - C/O x3 with qualifiers - (Spandau style f/p receiver-rebarrel w/ Spreewerke blank/Su19 acceptance)
9848 - C/O x3 with qualifiers - S28 parts throughout

182 a - C/Q x3 with qualifiers - (BC - Kr 857 FRS) (deactivated-PW French proofs)
1063 a - (KCN1993 - Peter Kuck & Mark Wieringa posted #5)
1506 a - RR n/a, (bolt- matching lower flat FP/C/O) Stock TD- 1./R.R.3. 160 (KenL)
1564 a - C/Q x3 with qualifiers (John Wall)
1920 2043 a - (1920 TR confirmed - re-barreled)
2457 a - C/Q x3 (BC - Kr 693) (Joe Steen)
3121 a - C/O x3 with qualifiers (BC - Kr 837 FRS) Stock TD - A/R.R.10.81
4743 a - C/Q x3 with qualifiers (BC - Kr 857 FRS)
8142 a - RR n/a eGun 2011

1920 8200 a - C/O x3 no qualifiers (BC - Bo 848 FRS)
1920 8266 a - C/Q x3 no qualifiers (re-barrel-1938 blank)
1920 8294 a - C/Q x3 (BC - Bo 583 FRS) (Marion Mericle)
1920 8545 a - C/Q x3 no qualifiers (re-barrel-Simson barrel e/46 e/81 "late")
1920 9456 a - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers (BC - Bo 755 FRS)

1920 267 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers (receiver only-poor pictures)
1920 301 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers (NS re-barrel)(bolt - FP/E/s)
1920 334 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers (Bernd)
1920 407 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers (Bo 847 C/O x2 FRS)(bolt - FP/E/s) (TD- J.R.10.87)
1920 589 b - E/S C/O C/O with qualifiers, BSR (BC Bo 347 C/Ox3 FRS) (Chris)
1920 807 b - E/S C/O C/O with qualifier, BSR
1920 1714 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers BSR (BC- Kr 873 C/O x3 FRS)
1920 3309 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers BSR (BC - Bo 583 FRS) (Joe Steen)
1920 3846 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers BSR 1920 (BC- BO 873 C/O x3 FRS)
1920 4069 b - E/s C/Q C/O with qualifiers BSR (BC- Bo 350 C/O x3 FRS)
1920 4349 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers BSR (BC- Bo 350 C/O x3 FRS)
1920 4504 b - E/s C/Q C/O with qualifiers BSR rc
1920 5477 b – “h” E/s C/Q C/O
1920 6042 b - (report Joe Steen Oct/97)

 

[Loewe]

A series of letters relating to the 98b/S28 from Joe Steen, who has since passed away, but it was posted in the MRJ and may lead to our better understanding. Joe Steen was one of the earliest researchers, and any examination of the 98b subject owes his memory a great debt.

 

[Loewe]

Peter Kuck composed:


KARABINER COLLECTORS NETWORK May 1993

The Karabiner 98b
Some Observations and Speculations
Written by Mark J. Wieringa
Edited with additional illustrations by Peter Kuck 03/02/2003, 04/26/2006


When I (Wieringa ) committed to do this article some time back, I was hopeful that some serious research with a good number of recorded rifle markings would lead to some fairly solid conclusions. Unfortunately, this has not turned out to be the case. However, the assembled data is interesting, and this article presents a summary of the analysis conducted, along with some tentative findings.

The database for this analysis consists of information on 34 different Karab.98b examples. Some of these were not much more than receivers when recorded; it is no secret that it is tough to find a reasonable example of this model. The data were arrayed by ascending serial numbers, as it appears the main Simson production run is one serial sequence regardless of year of manufacture. If true, this would indicate a total Simson production of about 60,000. This seems to be reasonable given a 100,000-man post—WW I German army, the fact that this total excludes Gew.98 rifles converted to Karab.98b configuration, and the fact the infantry continued to use Gew.98 rifles modified with the new s.S. rear sight assembly. It also is compatible with the observed rarity of Karab.98b today.

A few words should be said about the design of the Karab.98b. At the end of WW I, the Allies stipulated that Germany’s small army have a very high proportion of cavalry units, the experiences of that conflict having demonstrated that horse cavalry was obsolete. The Allies reasoned that this restriction would further reduce the effectiveness of the Reichsheer by having the bulk of it equipped as cavalry troopers. The Germans adroitly sidestepped this inconvenience by treating its cavalry units as mounted infantry, and outfitted them accordingly. The Karab.98b is a direct result of this thinking; it is an infantry rifle, with a few concessions for carry on horseback such as the side— mounted sling and turned—down bolt. As such, its lineage is more directly traced to the “Radfahrer Gewehr” (special Gew.98 for bicycle troops) and the “Schutztruppen Gewehr” (special Gew.98 for mounted infantry in German Southwest Africa) than to the Kar.98a.

Six major variations of the Karab.98b were identified, based on markings. The basic physical characteristics of the model do not vary significantly, physical differences being largely confined to the use of reworked Gew.98 parts as compared with new Simson production parts. A mix seems to be the norm, with individual rifles ranging from all new parts to having many reworked or original Gew.98 parts. The six major variations identified are described below; it is entirely possible that others may exist.


Major Variations

“S 28” - This variation is a blank receiver rifle having Imperial style Crown/O acceptance markings, on most parts, an Imperial style test proof eagle, but no sidewall marking. The bottom flat of the receiver is marked with a large “S 28”, and several other parts are marked “S 28” as well. This marking may indicate that “S 28” was Simson’s “S-code,” but no Karab.98b has yet surfaced with S/28 on the top of the receiver ring, and it is not likely that any exist. The Imperial markings in this case are post-WW I inspection marks, and not old pre-1918 markings on reworked parts. It has been rumored, but not proven, that Imperial stamps were intentionally used to mask new production. Perhaps a more likely explanation is that no other markings had been given approval by military authorities, and that old (or old-style) dies were used until the down-wing eagle was adopted. Given the Imperial flavor of this variation, it has been placed first in the chronology of variations, even though several other rifles have lower serial numbers. It is possible this example represents a separate serial range, or it may represent an anomaly in a single serial sequence. Mark Wieringa examined only one example in the 9300 no letter range. The other examples examined by Peter Kuck are s/n 1063a and s/n 9456a. Receiver inspection is three Crown/O stamps. (check this)

Dated Simson - These rifles have full receiver markings of “SIMSON & Co., SUHL.” with the date of manufacture. Manufacture dates of 1924 (s/n 9456 a) and 1925 (s/n 2632) are confirmed, and 1926 is reliably reported but not verified. Receiver sidewalls are still marked “Gew.98.” Although dated Simson Karab.98b have been established, it is possible that both Karab.98b and Gew.98 variants were produced with Simson receiver markings. Very few of these dated Simsons turn up, and most seem to have been later converted to Kar.98k configuration, or sporterized. These appear to come second in the chronological sequence as one has some “S 28” parts, they still have the “Gew.98.” sidewall marking, and the serial number range fits. Receiver proofing consists of the typical Weimar down-wing eagle test proof, and down-wing Eagle/6, Eagle/6, Eagle/14 on 1924 dates, or Eagle/6, Eagle/14, Eagle/14 on the 1925 dates. Serial range is 371 to 1200a on the few-recorded examples.

S Receiver - This variation is similar in markings to the dated Simson, except that the receiver lacks the full markings, having only a capital “S” on the top. This mark is centered on the receiver, about two—thirds of the way to the front edge, and is similar in size to the capital letters used in the normal receiver markings. The serial range, acceptance markings, and “Gew.98.” sidewall marking indicate it falls third in the chronological sequence. Receiver proofing is down-wing Eagle/6, Eagle/14, Eagle/14. Eagle/14 inspection appears only on the earliest Karab.98b, and is not seen after this variation.

Blank Receiver - This is the most common Karab.98b variation, having the script “Karab.98b.” or “Gew.98” sidewall marking, a blank receiver top, and an “S” (of various forms) on the right front of the receiver, forward of the inspection markings. The data array shows that this variation logically follows the previous variation, the Simson “S” having been moved from the top of the receiver to the right side, and the “Gew.98” marking superseded by the “Karab.98b” inscription. This variation actually encompasses two sub-variations: those using reworked Gew.98 receivers and those using new production receivers. Reworked Gew.98 receivers are sometimes seen, and may be intermixed throughout the production run. The same may be true of other parts. Serial numbers start in the low “b” range and extend into the high “e” or low “f” range, based on the admittedly statistically inadequate observation sample.

Initially, it was thought that the shape of the Simson “S” on the right receiver might be a type of code for the date of production. Six distinct forms of the “S” are known, as shown in the accompanying chart. Unfortunately, although some general trends can be seen, a pattern did not emerge when the receiver inspection/acceptance markings and “S” type were arranged by ascending serial number. In general, the slanted block “S” was the last style, preceded by the vertical block “S”. The runic and stylized “S” was intermingled, and the standard capital “S” was normally found on the earliest rifles. The script “S” was observed only on the “Mod.98” variation discussed below. Twenty-five Karab.98b of this variation were available for this analysis of receiver markings.

Receiver inspection/acceptance markings also showed no clear pattern. Eagle/6 and Eagle/43 are the most common, and are found throughout production. Eagle/76 and Eagle/46 appear sporadically, while Eagle/33 does not appear until the high “c” range. The order or combination of these four inspection stamps is inconsistent, and no conclusions concerning them can be drawn at this time.




“Mod.98” Marked - The last variation is the most enigmatic. Although both recorded examples are in the “b” block, it is felt that these are very likely out of the normal serial sequence. The receiver tops are blank, and yet another variation of the Simson “S,” a script letter, is in the usual location. Test proof eagles are very similar. However, the acceptance office numbers are quite different from other “b” block examples, being Eagle/81 and Eagle/67 in addition to the more familiar Eagle/43. The sidewalls of this variation are marked “Mod.98.” in script, in a style similar to, but distinctive from that on “S/27”, “27”, “ax”, and “ce” coded Kar.98k. As it is known that the “Mod.98.” marking was established by a September 1930, army order, it seems reasonable to assume that these must be late Karab.98b made between late 1930 or 1931 and about 1933. The “b” block serial numbers can not be explained with the information available.

 

[bruce98k]

I miss my conversations with Joe Steen.
Back before the internet we used snail mail and the phone to discuss topics and our conversations were always fun and illuminating!

 

[Loewe]

I miss my conversations with Joe Steen.
Back before the internet we used snail mail and the phone to discuss topics and our conversations were always fun and illuminating!

Agreed, Joe Steen only did letters and I saved every last one, about 20 I guess, but luckily Bob T. was a close compadre of his and we still chat (exchange email) and we often discussed topics from this forum today, but he doesn't do forums unfortunately (I have tried to get him to join...), - a last survivor of the founding generation (of our pastime)

BTW I will open this thread when I flesh out trends, done most of the S28 generation and working on 1925 Simson, will post everything I can on the subject that I think will not offend private discussions, - all in the hope that the data isn't lost, any rifle you need more specifics on or the pictures or a foundation for inclusion (some are mere reports) just inquire. This is intended to further future research, nothing more.

 

[bruce98k]

Paul, I will add additional data on the 98b to this section in Volume IV.
I will also revisit the S28 giving the Mauser/DWM connection.

As for the Model 1928 rifle mentioned in the Mauser records, it remains a puzzle. I am not sure about S28 rifles being assembled that late.
But thats a topic for the S28 thread.

 

[Stephan98k]

Paul, thank you very much for the effort with the "Karabiner 98b Trends", it's really great.


I'm a little late, the "Karabiner 98b" celebrated its 100th anniversary last week. This designation was determined at a meeting in the Reichswehr Ministry on June 26, 1925.

This is a very special example, you could add Sn 35 to the table: Reichsmarine Simson "Gew.98" 98b from 1924


You know, when the contract was signed in 1924 with Simson, this Karabiner 98b was still called the "Radfahrergewehr" or "Gewehr 98 für Radfahrer". Even before it was built and delivered, it was renamed "Gewehr 98 für Berittene" and on June 26, 1925 it got the final designation Karabiner 98b.

Simson S-markings
About one month earlier there was another 100th anniversary - there was a secret meeting on May 8, 1925, where, among other things, secret rearmament and procurement programs were discussed. Further discussions took place and on May 26, 1925, the high-ranking employee of the Reichswehr Ministry, codenamed "Perle," issued important orders. As example: "The smooth and covert transfer of weapons from Bestände (secret stocks) to Sollbestände (authorized stocks) and back requires uniform, inconspicuous designation of all weapons to be manufactured in the coming years."
During this time, the S-Code manufacturing codes were created and these secret employees of the Reichswehr Ministry were also responsible for the discreet design of the so-called S28 rifles.

Please note: My numbering differs from the table in post 2. I did this image so you can see how I sorted the different s-markings. This should avoid any misunderstandings.


Simson suffix letter
I did this picture additionally for the collectors, the Simson suffix letters are sometimes difficult to read. In the first row are the letters a, b and c, in the second row the letters d, e and f.




We still need data for the Addendum book and this area is especially important:
- Simson S-marking type - Serial number 8818b - 5670c

Karabiner 98b Sn 8818b has a S-marking type 2 and Karabiner 98b Sn 5670c has a S-marking type 3.

If you have a Karabiner 98b between these serial numbers in the late "b" block up and mid "c" block, please share your data.

 

[Stephan98k]

Here is an excerpt from the Volume II book SS chapter:



This Karabiner 98b Sn 268 O is missing in the table and you could add it. In the table is listed Karabiner 98b Sn 441 O as 441g, I think it's not a "g" block. The highest reported standard production Karabiner 98b is Sn 9482f and "f" should be the last block of Simson Karabiner 98b standard production.

It is not a "g" block, but it is not an "o" block either, it's Karabiner 98b Sn 268 from the "0" (zero) series, a special run by Simson. This production took place directly after the last standard Karabiner 98b got assembled in 1932 by Simson.

In my opinion, this Karabiner 98b deserves to be presented again in the Addendum book, as this variant represents a very important step on the way to the K98k and especially to war production.

Who is the owner of this great Karabiner 98b?
A K98b is not often found, and certainly not from the SS, it was already an exceptional piece. You have one of 1,500 Simson special run K98b, you should play the lottery or give me some of your luck.
Can you say something about its origin? Was it a captured weapon and if so, where did the veteran capture it?

Do you have any information about which SS unit this weapon served in? If not, maybe I have more information for you. There are no pics available, is there a marking on the top of the barrel? If there is a marking, it's a "7,9", "7,91", "7,92" ?

 

[freudi]

Hier mein 98b
5999f dürfte auch einer der letzten sein!

 

[chrisftk]

Great info @Stephan98k ! Thank you
Several of mine are on the list already, but this one isn't:

Blank receiver S3 type- 5790c - e/6, e/43, e/43, force matched depot bolt, 4/ A. R. 4. 114 unit marked.

 

[Loewe]

This is a work in progress, as I recall S28 is pretty complete, Simson was basically a cut and paste from a trends sheet... I am terribly prone to distraction, 90% of what I start ends in a ditch if something comes up.

I will take little bites to flesh out Simson trends, - the o-block was omitted because it is implausible with what is known, I have the dozen or so images and can't explain the how it fits (BC is way earlier and out of sequence, probably rejected); I feel this rifle is ill suited to a production study. Intriguing but not a Simson 98b, it only serves to distract from the project. Naturally, it should have a place here, just not in trends, I think Stephans post serves it well, if SS it might merit a special post! (I never thought of such a possibility, but in 1932 Simson was in a pickle of situations, and all things considered made the best of a terrible predicament- Arthur had the great fortune of a long life in California, the young Loewe family disappeared I believe, which bodes bad odds...)

 

[Loewe]

Stephan is correct, 441/g is actually 441 o; product of a cut & past from a trends sheet.

Basis of addition 2013 Gunboards post (Stephan feel free to lift these pictures for an SS related thread):

 

[Loewe]

November 13, 2013, source unknown or not stated (mix of two rifles, just a mixed bag for others to sort out...)

 

[Absolut]

A K98b is not often found, and certainly not from the SS, it was already an exceptional piece. You have one of 1,500 Simson special run K98b, you should play the lottery or give me some of your luck.

I'm afraid that this reply may end up with you bringing up an older thread of mine and having to picture a ton more parts, but for the sake of science, research and publishing a book with better information I'll nevertheless sacrifice myself and point out that Simson Gew.98 (b) SS rework to K98k of mine that I had posted here: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/simson-gew98-1925-shortened-to-k98k-with-ss-dh.60962/

We still need data for the Addendum book and this area is especially important:
- Simson S-marking type - Serial number 8818b - 5670c

Karabiner 98b Sn 8818b has a S-marking type 2 and Karabiner 98b Sn 5670c has a S-marking type 3.

If you have a Karabiner 98b between these serial numbers in the late "b" block up and mid "c" block, please share your data.

Will check later, I have some 98b rifles with "issues" (wrong stocks, still full in grease, broken stocks, etc.) that I had pulled from large stock dealers over the last decades sitting in a corner, possibly half a dozen. Not sure though if I have understood the requirements for these rifles - and what in particular of these guns you need to know. That would be helpful, because then I can make research easier.

 

[Loewe]

I'm afraid that this reply may end up with you bringing up an older thread of mine and having to picture a ton more parts, but for the sake of science, research and publishing a book with better information I'll nevertheless sacrifice myself and point out that Simson Gew.98 (b) SS rework to K98k of mine that I had posted here: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/simson-gew98-1925-shortened-to-k98k-with-ss-dh.60962/


Will check later, I have some 98b rifles with "issues" (wrong stocks, still full in grease, broken stocks, etc.) that I had pulled from large stock dealers over the last decades sitting in a corner, possibly half a dozen. Not sure though if I have understood the requirements for these rifles - and what in particular of these guns you need to know. That would be helpful, because then I can make research easier.

I had pictures from Jan-Feb 2022 of this rifle, good showing so new photos are not required for inclusion here, - clearly a extensive rework and possesses what could be a o-suffix re-barrel, which lends considerable merit to that narrative (theory). I took the liberty to add this rifle to trends in original configuration, not because its SS connection is unimportant, rather because the intended purpose of the research thread is Simson production and SS is incidental (though interesting in potential) to this research thread.

Very interesting rifle!

*** This rifle potentially changes the origins of SS involvement in 98k production, while not the original purpose, this may be the most interesting product of this thread!

 

[Absolut]

- Simson S-marking type - Serial number 8818b - 5670c

Did check, sorry, neither of the 9 Simson 98b are in between those.

 

[Stephan98k]

This is a work in progress, as I recall S28 is pretty complete, Simson was basically a cut and paste from a trends sheet... I am terribly prone to distraction, 90% of what I start ends in a ditch if something comes up.

I will take little bites to flesh out Simson trends, - the o-block was omitted because it is implausible with what is known, I have the dozen or so images and can't explain the how it fits (BC is way earlier and out of sequence, probably rejected); I feel this rifle is ill suited to a production study. Intriguing but not a Simson 98b, it only serves to distract from the project. Naturally, it should have a place here, just not in trends, I think Stephans post serves it well, if SS it might merit a special post! (I never thought of such a possibility, but in 1932 Simson was in a pickle of situations, and all things considered made the best of a terrible predicament- Arthur had the great fortune of a long life in California, the young Loewe family disappeared I believe, which bodes bad odds...)

I'm sorry Paul, I think there was a misunderstanding because of my poor English skills. I will quote the relevant things and I will try to explain it better.

"It is not a "g" block, but it is not an "o" block either, it's Karabiner 98b Sn 268 from the "0" (zero) series, a special run by Simson. This production took place directly after the last standard Karabiner 98b got assembled in 1932 by Simson."

The SS was not involved in the assembly of the Karabiner 98b. I mentioned the SS because this Karabiner 98b is pictured in the SS chapter in the Vol. II book and I know only three Karabiner 98b's that show signs of SS use, they are rare. If anyone think that the service in the SS makes this K98b something special, that is just a minor detail compared to its historical importance. (On the other hand, the topic of the SS is still interesting because it is extremely rare that a weapon can be assigned to a specific military unit and in the case of this K98b it may be possible - therefore I mentioned also the SS topic and I was asking for the owner)

Simson Karabiner 98b "zero" series
Simson produced the Karabiner 98b between 1924 and 1932. In the last two years of production, the Reichswehr Ministry drastically reduced orders for rifles. In 1931 only 2,500 K98b's were produced. In 1932 only 2,500 K98b's were produced - 1,000 standard K98b's, followed immediately by 1,500 K98b's of the "zero" series.

These 1,000 "f" block and 1,500 "zero" series K98b's are the tail end of Simson production, please add them again to the trends.

This was the last K98b order from Simson, the next K98b's were ordered from Sauer & Sohn (S&S had to be supported in some cases by secret Reichswehr money and orders to avoid bankruptcy. Sauer was a parent company in the manufacture of rifles in case of a future war and was therefore important and needed) in 1933. In September 1933, practically at the last minute, Jn.2 (Inspection for Infantry) contacted the Waffenamt and requested that the K98b's be delivered with shortened barrels. The Waffenamt responded positively short after the request and Sauer & Sohn delivered this order.

These shortened K98b's with the manufacturer code "S/147/K" were the first K98k carbines.

"In my opinion, this Karabiner 98b deserves to be presented again in the Addendum book, as this variant represents a very important step on the way to the K98k and especially to war production."

Like I mentioned, this variant (Simson K98b "zero" series) represents a important step to war production. Some parts of the Simson "zero" series (except the barrel) were not made of the usual materials, but of so-called Din-steel. These types of steel were not allowed to be used in peacetime, only in case of emergency during mobilization in case of war. This "zero"series was a test run and the tolerances were also slightly changed so that they could be mass-produced in the event of war. Actually you could call it a very early "Kriegsmodell". By the way, keep in mind what happened in 1938 (mobilization in Germany and BSW K98k parts starts in 1938 to have "B" markings at small parts and "C" at the receivers).


In 1931 and 1932, Simson was busy with some interesting things and here is an excerpt from another thread and more examples from me:

"A very early development and the "S" prefix could stand for Simson.

Simson orgininally designed such components in the early 30s. Mauser was not the leading company and did not develop it. Simson worked on this project about a decade before, the parts were tested and called successful by Waffenamt Prüfwesen. But these simplified parts were only intended for use in production in the event of war.

Excerpts from a meeting March 26, 1931
"Upper and lower bands for Gewehr 98. Previously they were manufactured as a milled part with an upper band requiring 15 machining operations and a lower band requiring 11 machining operations. According to Simson's proposal, they should be manufactured from stamped parts with electric welding or as a drawn part. Cost-effectiveness: Old version: upper band 2.73 RM. Lower band 2.67 RM. New version: upper band 0.60 RM. Lower band 0.75 RM."

"Follower for Gewehr 98. Previously a milled part requiring 13 machining steps. Simson, at the suggestion of Wa. Prw 2.IV, developed a prototype, but welding work still needed. The attempt to machine-manufacture followers from sheet metal without welding or filing by punching, pressing, and stamping was successful. Cost-effectiveness: Quantity: 2,500 pieces. Price: milled: 1.57 RM, stamped: 0.85 RM."

Some other important things that were previously thought to have been developed by companies during the Nazi era actually come from the company Simson in Suhl."
Link: byf42 'S319' Sheet Metal Trials Gun

More examples:

"Excerpts from a Waffenamt Wa Prw meeting January 26, 1931
Barrel material trials.
Barrel rifling process with pressed grooves. Simson manufactured barrels with 6, 7, and 8 grooves. Walther manufactured barrels with 4 and 6 grooves. Trials in February 1931.
Simson and Walther apparently have the same difficulties with pressing. The issue is still unresolved."
"Barrel material made of DIN materials.
Barrels of Schußwaffen 98 made of Din-steel can be used as replacements in war, but for machine guns the material is not sufficient."

"Excerpts from a Waffenamt Wa Prw 2 meeting February 16, 1932
Schußwaffen 98 Manufacturing Documents.
Simson is manufacturing 1,000 rifles from the existing material and 1,500 rifles from DIN-steel according to the corrected equipment and gauges. Due to production, the drawings are being supplemented as of April 1, 1932. Completion expected by the end of 1932."
"DIN-material for barrels.
For G.98 and K.98b, DIN-material St C 60.61 is approved for the A-case.
DIN-material is not yet sufficient for machine gun barrels. Further tests with DIN-material from J.D. for G.98, K.98b, and machine guns are underway. At the same time, we are determining whether different steel mills can supply DIN-material consistently. Tests will be conducted over the course of the summer."
"Barrel rifling process with pressed grooves.
Purpose of the tests: facilitate production in the A-case scenario.
Simson & Co, Suhl:
Simson wants to conduct new tests with established materials.
Walther, Zella-Mehlis:
Walther has manufactured barrels for the G.98 and K.98b. Barrels have been tested for 14,000 rounds (Cut rifling for up to 21,000 rounds)".

 

[Stephan98k]

November 13, 2013, source unknown or not stated (mix of two rifles, just a mixed bag for others to sort out...)

The first picture is a good example why somebody could mistake the "zero" for a "g" block, and also because it would be a continuation of the "f" block. This is the tail end of the 1932 Simson production, serial number 441 "zero" series.

The second Karabiner 98b, serial number 8535a is a good example from you, interesting in several areas. It has one thing in common with Dave Davis (Rest in Peace) Karabiner 98b from 1924, serial number 323 and I don't mean their service in the navy. Both have a Nordsee property marking at the stock disc..



Above is a picture of serial number 8535a, Karabiner 98b serial number 323 is shown in the Volume I book on pages 82 and 83.

On both K98b the rear sight were converted from S. to s.S. Patrone. This conversion was not carried out after the National Socialists came to power, I think around three years earlier. These are early conversions.

In my first post I was talking about the 100th anniversary of the S-Code manufacturing codes. Here we have two early S-Code examples with "S 147 R". Sauer & Sohn manufactured these rear sight ramp for s.S. Patrone in 1929.