Mauser & Commission Sporting/Commercial Rifles Marketed w/ .315" Bullets?

[ajczarkowski]

Hello again everyone! I admit I wasn't sure if this would be the right sub-section of the forum to post this topic/question in, so if it needs to be moved I 100% understand.

Anyways, I am trying to piece a bunch of pieces of a puzzle together. I don't think there's a better forum than this one to get some info on this topic. I actually don't know if there are any solid answers to any of the questions I may ask in this thread, lol... so It's really more of a discussion because I'd like to see what other forum members may have info on.

I went down a rabbit hole over the past few months. I have been researching Mauser and Commission Rifle sporters that were sold commercially. Specifically in 8mm chamberings... I noticed that in catalogs (including US catalogs), these rifles were marketed as using .315 caliber bullets (I have attached a couple of examples below).

On the Sportsman's Vintage Press website, they have a really interesting page written on the Mauser sporting rifles. Interestingly enough, there is not a 8x57, 7.92, or 8mm Mauser etc., listed as a chambering for any of these rifles. Just 8x51mm w/ .315 caliber bullets and 8x60mm w/ .315 caliber bullets.

Link: https://sportsmansvintagepress.com/read-free/mauser-rifles-pistols-table-of-contents/mauser-sporter/

I admit I originally became interested in this topic because I bought an 1888 Commission Rifle/Gewehr 88 (big shoutout to those forum members who helped me get it shooting again, I've since bought another one!). And I read that the rifles with older barrels (pre "Z" marking on top of the receiver) had a .318" bore diameter. Two things to note about this - 1). I believe those who gave me this information meant groove and not bore and 2). I believe they were confusing the original groove diameter of the military style Commission Rifle with that of the sporting/commercial rifles of the era.

My understanding now is that up until mid 1896, the 1888 Commission Rifle/Gewehr 88 barrels were something along the lines of .320/.321" groove diameter and after mid 1896 they had the Z barrels, which were .323+ grooves and that would continue with Mauser Gewehr 98 production.

Why were commercial production Mauser 98 and 1888 Commission Rifle sporters being marketed with .315" bullets? I suspect those might be the source for the .318" groove barrels? I know the Czechs rebarreled some of their captured Gewehr 88s to this size barrel... why would the Czechs rebarrel a military rifle to this sporting size?

It might also be worth noting I can't seem to find the name of this .315" round... Some may say "8x57j", but isn't that just the round nose original 8x57 M88 round? I have found pictures of headstamps marked, "M88/8", could this be what I'm looking for? I have noticed on most of these sporting rifles, they are marked 7.8mm instead of 7.9mm or 7.92...

Why would the Germans use tighter dimensions in their sporting rifles than in their military rifles? And why did the Czechs opt to rebarrel their Gewehr 88s with the sporting dimensions? I'm sure some might point to the treaty of Versialles, but aren't there examples of rifles with these tighter dimensions predating WWI? I'd also love to find more information on this .315 caliber that I can't find the name of...

I wish I had the funds to buy tons of these rifles and different ammo types and measure them all, lol.

 

[ernie8]

You have hit upon the confusion caused by people repeating incorrect bore sizes , bullets and what they are called . All of my original German sporting ammo has the .315 ish [ .3158 ] bullets and to have about .002 clearance in the sporters .307 land - .318 groove barrels . There will be a little +/- . The original German military ammo was a .3188 bullet in a . 3208 groove military barrel , the same .002 clearance . So how can 8x57 J be both ? It can't . The military ammo was call P-88 . . I was one of the first to find and measure the CZ .318 military barrels [ I got a rifle from a WWII vet that was a bring back from CZ , well before the imports came in ] and I still do not know for sure why the CZ barrels and ammo are made to civilian specs . Why did they just sell them to South America , as they did not go to Turkey [ just regular barrels did ] . Did they get their hands on a bunch of civilian barrels , machinery ? I have bought tons of these rifles and ammo and measured them . What you have posted is correct .

 

[ernie8]

There were 4 main bullet sizes for the German 8x57mm . Civilian : .3158 , P-88 : .3188 , S : .3208 and sS : .323 . There were 4 main bore sizes . Civilian .307 - .3158 , 1st Military with the Gew-88 : .314 - .3208 , 1890 1/2 2nd Gew-88 : .311 - .3208 , 1896 1/2 Z : .311 - 323 . So the incorrect terms of J and JS for bores and ammo can not be correct for four different sizes .

 

[ajczarkowski]

You have hit upon the confusion caused by people repeating incorrect bore sizes , bullets and what they are called . All of my original German sporting ammo has the .315 ish [ .3158 ] bullets and to have about .002 clearance in the sporters .307 land - .318 groove barrels . There will be a little +/- . The original German military ammo was a .3188 bullet in a . 3208 groove military barrel , the same .002 clearance . So how can 8x57 J be both ? It can't . The military ammo was call P-88 . . I was one of the first to find and measure the CZ .318 military barrels [ I got a rifle from a WWII vet that was a bring back from CZ , well before the imports came in ] and I still do not know for sure why the CZ barrels and ammo are made to civilian specs . Why did they just sell them to South America , as they did not go to Turkey [ just regular barrels did ] . Did they get their hands on a bunch of civilian barrels , machinery ? I have bought tons of these rifles and ammo and measured them . What you have posted is correct .

There were 4 main bullet sizes for the German 8x57mm . Civilian : .3158 , P-88 : .3188 , S : .3208 and sS : .323 . There were 4 main bore sizes . Civilian .307 - .3158 , 1st Military with the Gew-88 : .314 - .3208 , 1890 1/2 2nd Gew-88 : .311 - .3208 , 1896 1/2 Z : .311 - 323 . So the incorrect terms of J and JS for bores and ammo can not be correct for four different sizes .

That is some very interesting information! It's good to get some insight from someone who has measured them.

I was also thrown off by how people used the term "8x57 J" for both the original, long nosed P88 ammo that is about .318 or .319 caliber and for the "bores" (even though they meant grooves) of the sporting rifles. Like you wrote, how can 8x57 J be both? From my research (and I will admit it mostly all comes from either looking at old catalogues and looking at what other people measured with old ammo - I only have two of the rifles and a small collection of the ammo) the 8x57 J is the term ammo companies used to marked the original, long nosed version of the military P88 ammo. I am actually bidding on a box of old Norma 8x57 J currently on GunBroker. It certainly wouldn't make sense that the long and heavy 8x57 J, or P88 ammo, that has a caliber of .318 or .319 would be fired through the sporting rifles that have grooves of .318 caliber, or something along those lines.

Any idea what this .315 ammo was marketed as? Did they also simply call it 8x57? Also, did the Czechs use German sporting barrel dimensions on some of their other rifles, or was it just the Gewehr 88s that were later sent to South America?

 

[AndyB]

Since 30ies there is CIP international homologisation of name of cartridges, and there in they tables the 2 mainly declared ammunition types
-8x57J or 8x57I declares as 8,09mm outside diameter of projectile (J was used instead of I as not mistakely destined as roman I.) syn. 8x57, DWM366,GR362

https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-i/tabical-de-page56.pdf

-8x57JS as with 8,22mm diameter of projectile, synonyms- 8mm Mauser, 8x57S, 7,9 patrone SS294, DWM561, 8,2x57 ...different designation by various countries of usage

https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-i/8-x-57-is-en.pdf

ofcoarse by shooting of previous period used or produced military rifles, should be looked how it was reworked in germany in period since 1888-1905.
ZB Brno by delivering of rifle barells to South America produced what the contractor asked. So when they asked dimmension like mentioned by Ernie so it was, in writen armory books now are not detailed the dimmension of twist.
There exist variation of rand cartridge 8x57JR which was used mainly by hunter rifles in Europe prior 1945.
And Ammunition fabrics in CSR produced minimum 6 type of projectiles within the 8x57J.

 

[ernie8]

What you read in the books does not fit real life . You need to look at real rifles and ammo .You are not going to have much luck shooting a so called J bullet of .3188 dia in a tight civilian .307 - .3175 barrel [ I have a large selection of different barrels and rifles to measure ] . How many Gew-88 rifles are in your collection ? Do you even shoot rifles ? So the so called J ammo is incorrect for civilian rifles that need .315 bullets . I have a bunch of original civilian .315 bullet ammo , so what is it ? What is the original S bullet called then as it is a 8.14 dia ? Back to the SA cz barrels made to a spec the military never used , why ? The CZ ammo has the .3158 bullet that the military never used , why ? I have Gew-88 rifles from the same batch that had the CZ barrel rifles in it . They are found with .323 groove Z barrels and some still have the old .314 - 3208 barrels on them . If the SA shot the .315 CZ ammo in them it would be like shooting a smooth bore , why would they do that ? What to say is the J ammo is P-88 and the JS ammo is the sS ammo , so what are the 8.14 mm S and 8.00 mm civilian ammo called ? The SA CZ civilian barrel and ammo size does not make sense and I do not understand why they would do that .

 

[ernie8]

The above is why the confusion still exists . He is saying the rifles and ammo I have does not exist .

 

[AndyB]

You doesnt read what i wrote, "So when they asked dimmension like mentioned by Ernie so it was, in writen armory books now are not detailed the dimmension of twist."
that are mentioned standards since 193x nothing more that are in CIP organisation (when You have problem with standardisation ok), i wrote that there existed version in period 1888-1905 which could have different diameter of twist because of it was development of the rifles,, barells, ammunition and tests undertaken in longer period.
The ZB didnt sold any Gew88 rifles, only delivered new parts of which partly was bolts for Turkey and barells for few countries of SA.
In Czechoslovakia was switched since 1920 to Mauser 98 and they buyed complete line from Mauser Oberndorf am Neckar with barells in 8,22mm diameter of projectile. Anyway as the round was not satisfied as good they developed a new Vz.23 round in Czechoslovakia for short type of rifles. Gew88 was a obsolete rifle in 1920, no one was interested to buy it army or civilian in teritorry of CSR.

 

[ernie8]

Twist is not what you call bore diameter . I am not talking about what size bullets the Czechs used , that has nothing to do with the sizes used by German civilian rifles . The statement was J can not be both he civilian and German military Gew-88 as the two are different . I know exactly what bore sizes and bullet sizes and when they were used by the German Military from 1888 to 1905 . They used 3 different bore sizes and 2 different bullet sizes . I have listed them before . I have many NEW barrels made by the Czechs that went to Turkey that are on Gew-88 rifles . They are different than the SA barrels . In that time period there were many things happening that did not end up being recorded . If I have them in my hands , that means they did happen . I am not talking about what the Czech military did in the 30's . I am talking about current rifles and what ammo they need .

 

[ernie8]

I would still like an answer of why were the CZ SA barrels and ammo made to non military spec , when the SA countries had other mil spec rifles and ammo . Other Ecuadorean 8mm ammo of the time period was mil spec and will NOT even chamber in some of the tightest CZ SA barrels . Why did that happen ? How did some of the Gew-88 rifles used by the Austro-Hungarian army in WWI end up in Ecuador ? I have got some from that import bunch that still have A-H slings and swivels on them .

 

[ajczarkowski]

I would still like an answer of why were the CZ SA barrels and ammo made to non military spec , when the SA countries had other mil spec rifles and ammo . Other Ecuadorean 8mm ammo of the time period was mil spec and will NOT even chamber in some of the tightest CZ SA barrels . Why did that happen ? How did some of the Gew-88 rifles used by the Austro-Hungarian army in WWI end up in Ecuador ? I have got some from that import bunch that still have A-H slings and swivels on them .

That is very strange. I was unaware that the other Ecuadorean ammo was mil spec and not the German hunting/sporting size. I assumed that, because they got these Czech Gewehr 88s that had the hunting/sporting barrels, they were simply using those .3158 bullets for some reason... So that adds even more mystery. I find it very interesting that mil-spec ammo doesn't even chamber in those rifles, I had wondered about that. Also interesting how some of them are ex Austro-Hungarian Gewehr 88s.

The point I made about the so called "8x57 J" was in agreement with you - I also wouldn't think a person would have much luck shooting the long, round nose .3188 P88 ammo in the German sporting/hunting dimension barrels that is about .317/318 groove. Any idea when the .3158 ammunition ceased production? I find it a bit strange how rare it is considering it seems like pretty much all of the German sporting Mauser & Commission Rifles had that tighter .317 groove barrel.

Thank you for listing the 4 different bullet sizes and 4 different barrel sizes, that definitely clears a lot up. It definitely is clear to me now that people confuse the original Gewehr 88 and P88 ammo with the German sporting rifles and their ammo.

 

[ernie8]

I have a lot of old German sporting ammo , but most does not have a date code like military ammo . So I do not really know the age . I have been collecting for a long time . I got most of this ammo from WWII vets , brought back as souvenirs picked up from the piles of weapons and ammo the German public turned at the end of the war . Also another fact , the 1930's CZ Gew-88 type ammo of civilian spec for the 88's has the .315 ish bullet and it is loaded to a much shorter overall cartridge length than the military P-88 ammo . The CZ 88 small barrels also have a shorter chamber throat for that ammo , that is one of the chambering problems with some of the other ammo . I have a few that will not chamber P-88 ammo . Lots of strange stuff there .

 

[AndyB]

only for understand what are CIP Standards:

TDCC - Tables of dimensions of cartridges and chambers | Drupal

www.cip-bobp.org

It would be nice to see the turkish Gew88/05 or Gew88/14 with czechoslovak barells, anyway there are not reports to delivery of G88 barells to Turkey from ZB. This could be only when there was a remains of production to SA and spare wents to Turkey with other spare parts as by well known bolt contract. ZB was a state armory they couldnt delivery to civilian market prior very late 40ies.
In Europe was a metric system already in that period, so they measured in mm, and all dimensions were in this range, as the G88 is a german rifle same as cartridge P88 and the development to 8x57S was asked from german army needs.
For reloaders are this usefull information, that You measured on all rifles, anyway from historical point there is a tolerance system, so the designation was declared to exact max.diameter of projectile used by cartridge in exact model rifle. The standards were defined by army tests and asking exact ammunition type for military use.

 

[AndyB]

To Your presented cartridge is here a link and explanation of the standards since 1909 of civilian cartridges 8x57

8х57 Mauser with headstamp M.88/8 NORM

Here are my notes on “Normalised”: A major problem in Germany ammunition production c1900 was that most companies introduced similar cartridges for competing Gunmakers that were similar in dimensions but apparently non-interchangeable. The “MB” cartridges in both Utendoerffer and Lorenz...

forum.cartridgecollectors.org

To statement in first thread:
"I know the Czechs rebarreled some of their captured Gewehr 88s to this size barrel... why would the Czechs rebarrel a military rifle to this sporting size?"
Czechoslovak didnt capture any Gewehr 88, only it remains very small ammount in area of the Czech and slovak teritorry from Austro-ugrian empire, they didnt used by military as it was obsolete gun, some of the used rifles were reworked to shotgun for guarding duty with change of barell. ZB produced in military contract with SA country mainly Equador the barells G88 for their rifles nothing more, as mentioned when they asked exact size of twist so they done what a contractor asked. Even You would be strange with the choice, from what country came the G88 to SA i dont known, but it was not Czechoslovakia.

 

[ernie8]

Your right none of my examples really exist . I have rifles that disprove what you say . You never answered any of my questions . HOW many rifles have you inspected and measured ????? HOW large is your ammo collection ? It does not matter what you read if it does not match reality . Everyone who needed help here getting ammo for their old rifles used my info as it DID match their rifles . I will continue to help those people . What you say is irrelevant .

 

[AndyB]

I was present by slovak ammunition society for 20 years, chief of slovak ammo society is my good friend. Unfortunally i already ended with this collecting some years ago.
When You have so many rifles observed,that i never saw as not in USA, so You should not have any problems present a turkish Gew88 with czechoslovak Z in circle barell. It would be nice to confirm this.

 

[Cyrano4747]

Your right none of my examples really exist . I have rifles that disprove what you say . You never answered any of my questions . HOW many rifles have you inspected and measured ????? HOW large is your ammo collection ? It does not matter what you read if it does not match reality . Everyone who needed help here getting ammo for their old rifles used my info as it DID match their rifles . I will continue to help those people . What you say is irrelevant .

Can you post some of your rifles, show some of these measurements, etc? This argument should be trivial for you to win, but all you need to do is post some of the proof that you're sitting on. This is an argument that's gone on for years, all you need to do is present the proof that you have to pretty definitively show you are correct.

 

[ernie8]

Turk 88/05's , CZ ammo , CZ barrels , German civilian ammo , and German military ammo are not uncommon items . Just measure them yourself . He can't because he has none . He is correct about what the Czechs used , but that has nothing to do with the rest of the world . That is the reason S&B and Privi use the incorrect terms for their ammo , their ammo society . Everything I have said about bores sizes and what bullet to use has matched every rifle out there that was measured by the owners . I have over 100 Gew-88 rifles , I do not remember which ones have a CZ barrel on a Turk . I really do not need to start pulling down rifles till I find one . It is the internet , how would I show measurements? All you have to do is put a bad zero in the tool to make it show whatever you wanted . 30 years ago I bought a CZ small barrel Gew-88 [ besides others ] from a Vet's grandson . The vet was a Major , a doctor in the 3rd army and was in Czech area after the war . He collected some weapons [ one was the 88 ] . I was shown some photos from may of 1945 with him and his weapons , most of which I ended up with . The Gew-88 is in a couple of photos . That means a CZ small barrel was put on a Gew-88 by the Czechs .

 

[ajczarkowski]

To Your presented cartridge is here a link and explanation of the standards since 1909 of civilian cartridges 8x57

8х57 Mauser with headstamp M.88/8 NORM

Here are my notes on “Normalised”: A major problem in Germany ammunition production c1900 was that most companies introduced similar cartridges for competing Gunmakers that were similar in dimensions but apparently non-interchangeable. The “MB” cartridges in both Utendoerffer and Lorenz...

forum.cartridgecollectors.org

To statement in first thread:
"I know the Czechs rebarreled some of their captured Gewehr 88s to this size barrel... why would the Czechs rebarrel a military rifle to this sporting size?"
Czechoslovak didnt capture any Gewehr 88, only it remains very small ammount in area of the Czech and slovak teritorry from Austro-ugrian empire, they didnt used by military as it was obsolete gun, some of the used rifles were reworked to shotgun for guarding duty with change of barell. ZB produced in military contract with SA country mainly Equador the barells G88 for their rifles nothing more, as mentioned when they asked exact size of twist so they done what a contractor asked. Even You would be strange with the choice, from what country came the G88 to SA i dont known, but it was not Czechoslovakia.

Oh I see, the territory was a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. I misunderstood how the Czechs acquired the Gewehr 88s.

So the Equador Gewehr 88s may not have come from Czechoslovakia? Czechoslovakia only sent them the barrels? To clarify, I know all the rifles were German made, I mean the rifles themselves may not have been sent to South America by the Czechs.

Brazil had Gewehr 88s at one point. Who knows - maybe the Ecaudorian Gewehr 88s came from Brazil.

Also, I have heard about the Gewehr 88 shotgun conversions, I'd like to learn more about them. Do we know what gauge/bore they were converted to?

Another question I'd like to pose - Does anyone know the reason why the German sporting/hunting rifles were chambered for .315 caliber bullets in the first place? Someone once told me it was because of the Treaty of Versailles, but I haven't found any evidence of that.

 

[Cyrano4747]

Turk 88/05's , CZ ammo , CZ barrels , German civilian ammo , and German military ammo are not uncommon items . Just measure them yourself . He can't because he has none . He is correct about what the Czechs used , but that has nothing to do with the rest of the world . That is the reason S&B and Privi use the incorrect terms for their ammo , their ammo society . Everything I have said about bores sizes and what bullet to use has matched every rifle out there that was measured by the owners . I have over 100 Gew-88 rifles , I do not remember which ones have a CZ barrel on a Turk . I really do not need to start pulling down rifles till I find one . It is the internet , how would I show measurements? All you have to do is put a bad zero in the tool to make it show whatever you wanted . 30 years ago I bought a CZ small barrel Gew-88 [ besides others ] from a Vet's grandson . The vet was a Major , a doctor in the 3rd army and was in Czech area after the war . He collected some weapons [ one was the 88 ] . I was shown some photos from may of 1945 with him and his weapons , most of which I ended up with . The Gew-88 is in a couple of photos . That means a CZ small barrel was put on a Gew-88 by the Czechs .

Setting aside faking stuff, it's not that hard to post pictures of a weapon, pictures of a slug, and show the measurements. This is really well trod ground with any group on the internet that does collaborative research or sharing information. You have 100+ rifles? Then you've got an amazing data set and should share it, especially if you're going to use it to argue that you're correct.